Windows 8? Nah: Win Phone 8 should give Apple the fear Windows Phone 8 might spell the beginning of a climb to relevance for a desktop vendor breaking out its latest PC operating system at almost the same time. Why will Windows Phone 8 mean more than Windows 8? Not because Windows Phone 8 is groundbreaking. And not because its user experience compels adoption. While Windows Phone …
Too right my friend. This article is such a load of nonsense. It isn't like WP7.5 has given WP8 a springboard to go and succeed as you cant even upgrade your WP7.5 hardware to 8 (very silly IMHO).
It isn't the OS hardware makers are worried about. It's themselves (Samsung in particular) deciding to go "oh, we very much like this Apple design - let's copyyyyy!". Android isn't going to get snuffed overnight. It costs nothing to adopt and as long Google keep developing new versions (and don't upset adopters), it'll only keep Microsoft further out of the smartphone game. That's regardless to whether a vendor does a 50/50 split on OS releases (i.e. HTC if they decide to develop less Android phones).
There's no game changer in WP8 from reviews and countless plays on existing WP7.5 devices. So it isn't going anywhere.
"Too right my friend. This article is such a load of nonsense. It isn't like WP7.5 has given WP8 a springboard to go and succeed as you cant even upgrade your WP7.5 hardware to 8 (very silly IMHO)."
And if two years ago, Nokia had released multi-core phones with hardware far in excess of what WP7 required for the sake of meeting the requirements of a phone two years down the line, you would not have been critical of that?
"There's no game changer in WP8 from reviews and countless plays on existing WP7.5 devices. So it isn't going anywhere."
It's very nice to use from what I've seen (I have WP7 so some idea of what ModernUI is like on a phone) and seems very nice to develop for and you can simultaneously develop for Desktops, tablets and phones. I don't see why you should be so confident you know that it wont do well. Signs so far are pointing to 'yes' as it's looking increasingly well regarded the more people see of it from what I understand.
"And if two years ago, Nokia had released multi-core phones with hardware far in excess of what WP7 required for the sake of meeting the requirements of a phone two years down the line, you would not have been critical of that?"
Why would I be critical of that? Unfortunately, Apple/Google changed the mindset of stone set OSs in smartphones and allowed longitivity with their associated hardware products. Nokia would of at least got ahead of RIM and kept within the smartphone race if this had happened two years ago. This would of given Microsoft some valuable lessons on what to do in the smartphone market. I still feel they don't get it yet.
"It's very nice to use from what I've seen (I have WP7 so some idea of what ModernUI is like on a phone) and seems very nice to develop for and you can simultaneously develop for Desktops, tablets and phones. I don't see why you should be so confident you know that it wont do well. Signs so far are pointing to 'yes' as it's looking increasingly well regarded the more people see of it from what I understand."
That's fair enough. At least the framework is there to make the jumps neccessary but it takes a long time to guage interest for development. There's no point Microsoft wanting a huge percentage of the market when they can't get anyone not from a major software company to develop for them to grow the app base. That's the basis of what a smartphone OS is built on.
Anyway, when have Apple ever been feared of their competition? We wouldn't get the products they're producing if they felt they had to react to the market place all the time. On that basis, Microsoft are no different than Google in trying to stir up the market with reactionary decisions.
"Unfortunately, Apple/Google changed the mindset of stone set OSs in smartphones and allowed longitivity with their associated hardware products."
Not really, phone updates had been done for years.
"Anyway, when have Apple ever been feared of their competition?"
Apple are no different to anyone else. When Apple do something, we hear Apple fanatics tell us how the competition have to respond. Well, Apple react to their competition too, and would be stupid not to be paying attention. I don't think "fear" is the right word for a company, but similarly, no other company fears Apple or anyone else either.
@h4rm0ny
""And if two years ago, Nokia had released multi-core phones with hardware far in excess of what WP7 required for the sake of meeting the requirements of a phone two years down the line, you would not have been critical of that?""
they was not allowed to use an Dual core cpu with WP7, same limit applied to ram (but with 7.5 they allowed 256mb i think but IMO thats an Bad idea as you end up with an phone that cant run any thing new that need more ram or it not run well) and screen pixel was locked to one screen size, WP8 allows dual core(upto64), 3 screen size modes and 1gb of Ram
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Phone_7 (at the bottom min hardware specs)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Phone_8
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Windows_Phone_devices
when my blackberry dies i most likely get an windows 8 phone I mainly use it for business use (calendar and calls) do all my fun stuff on my backup android phone
the HTC One X (1800 ? battery) i currently use but most likely going to sell it (i am selling it) and get an Motoroar Droid RAZOR MAXX (3200 battery) as battery life is really bugging me not lasting an day unless i charge it up for another hour (get an day out of it if do not use it at all 2 days if i use 2G only) as the razor maxx should get me 2 days, 1 day worst case, where as other smartphones (not just HTC) your lucky if you get day life out of it worst case 2-4 hrs), most android phones are just like iPlug phones (most of the time needing the usb charge cable)
I disagree! WP7.5 has certainly given WP8 a spring board. There are several reason why -
1. WP8 now starts with an app store of over 100,000 apps. WP7 started with only 300. And all of those WP7 apps will run on WP8. That's a decent spring board, and the remaing missing big name apps have already confirmed that they will be coming to WP8.
2. Nokia has increased mind-share. It has created phones which are now instantly recognisable - Lumia 800 / 900 / 920. And they stand out from all the competion, whether it's WP or non-WP.
3. All the reviews of the Nokia Lumia 920 show that WP8 combined with innovative hardware and design does make it a game changer. The operating system alone may not be the sole game changer, but the fact that it's no longer limiting what the OEMs can do in terms of hardware design means that they can now innovate on a platform that is safe from litigation, and has already proven to be stable, innovative, and fast. Perhaps most important of all, WP7.5 has a very high satisfaction rating and the same is expected of WP8 based on existing reviews.
"1. WP8 now starts with an app store of over 100,000 apps. WP7 started with only 300. And all of those WP7 apps will run on WP8."
That's really great if you have a top of the line WP8 smart phone - all of those apps are in the old WP7 screen resolution, so they look like crap on a HD resolution screen.
Since when was software hardcoded at a particular resolution?
Generally speaking, it's no trouble writing apps to scale at different resolutions. Of course there will be some that have trouble or are dumb, but then this argument applies to other platforms too.
How do you think Android manages with HD resolution phones, when there are so many older or lower end phones still on sale with postage stamp resolutions like 320x240 or 480x320? When Iphone 4 was released, did you claim that because all the applications were written for the tiny low resolution of earlier Iphones, that they would all look crap on newer Iphones?
> but the fact that it's no longer limiting what the OEMs can do in terms of hardware design
OEMs are still restricted as to what they can do in terms of hardware design, it is just that the restrictions are different from those for WP7. For example there is a small number of SoCs that can be used, and MS have allocated specific SoCs to specific OEMs.
> a platform that is safe from litigation,
There is nothing that is safe from litigation, Oracle and Apple are showing that.
> and has already proven to be stable, innovative, and fast.
How can it be 'proven to be stable' when commentators aren't even allowed to touch it.
> WP7.5 has a very high satisfaction rating
That was _before_ they were told that it was a dead-end and they still have to pay for it for the rest of their two year contract.
Commenters WERE allowed to touch it. Do a search and you'll see several hands-on comparisons (eg The Verge) between the Lumia 920 and competing phones. The Lumia 920 beat all of them by miles, including the iPhone 4S and Samsung Galaxy S3.
As it happens, Microsoft and Nokia have announced that they will be adding more features to WP7.8, including some of the extra stuff coming to WP8. So WP7.5 isn't so dead-end afterall.
Most mainstream manufacturers using Android pay Microsoft royalties. That cost is a direct consequence of choosing Android.
No, that cost is a direct consequence of making phones. They are paying royalties to MS for use of patents. Those patents are mostly hardware, MS would want that if they were making Bada or other OS phones.
> It cost Samsung an *additional* $1bn.
Yet to be appealed. And that has nothing to do with Android at all, it is because Samsung made devices that are rectangular with rounded corners. There were a few points where Samsung added bits to the UI as well.
Having iOS, Android & WinPho 8 being strong in the market is the best deal for end users.
Apple may throw things at Android, but damn are Android phone manufacturers hitting back at Apple. When they get this nonsense all settled, hopefully they'll learn that excessive litigation is a bad idea.
Competition drives innovation. Apparently it also drives whiny fanboi-ism too, but you can't have everything ;)
I'd like to see everyone do well and fight for more customers, it will make all the platforms better.
You mean Harmattan( /Meego/Maemo/thingy ) as per N9 which you can still get in these here parts and looks remarkably like the prototype for the Mango Lumias! Maybe the OS needs to be opensourced or spun off totally so it can be used by some of the smaller players. Or maybe that's happened already, I have no clue!
The one to watch would be Tizen - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tizen - which has support from market leader Samsung, so who knows. It's a Linux based OS that borrows from Meego (though it's unclear to me if this is Linux in the sense that Meego is, i.e., a Linux distribution on a phone, or in the sense that Android is, i.e., just using the Linux kernel).
I agree. Whilst I like Android being the dominant platform, and I'm glad it's got a *massive* lead over the closed and limited Iphone platform, I still hope WP does well. Firstly competition is good, secondly, it'd be a bit sad if the only alternative to Android becomes Iphone.
Remember that up until 2011, we had the two dominant platforms of Symbian and Android, with Iphone behind, or par with the likes of Blackberry. So if Nokia's switch to WP basically means the loss of a complete mainstream platform, replaced by something that isn't used as much, then that would be sad.
I find it sad to see Android fans showing a knee jerk opposition to anything to do with WP. Also I find it sad to see Apple fanatics telling us that we should be thankful to Apple for providing competition - but they are never ever thankful of other companies, and often don't even acknowledge their existence (ever see Symbian covered in the mainstream press, despite it's massive success over Apple?)
"Remember that up until 2011, we had the two dominant platforms of Symbian and Android"
Back in the real world, someone made @Mark take his meds.
"android" is what exactly? Which version, what resolution? with what functionality?
Ios is 85% iOS 5, and 4 resolutions Ip3 Ip4 Retina, Ipad 1,2 and Ipad 3.
From what I've seen of the android store, with stuff not working on either a ginderbread single core device, as it's too old, nor a Quad core N7 as it's too new, doesn't inspire confidence in this "android"
Don't get me wrong, I like the widgets and other bits you can do, but Android != Ios for developers or users.
and Symbian? Well ...
A customer enters a pet shop.
Mr. Praline: 'Ello, I wish to register a complaint.
(The owner does not respond.)
Mr. Praline: 'Ello, Miss?
Owner: What do you mean "miss"?
Mr. Praline: I'm sorry, I have a cold. I wish to make a complaint!
Owner: We're closin' for lunch.
Mr. Praline: Never mind that, my lad. I wish to complain about this parrot what I purchased not half an hour ago from this very boutique.
Owner: Oh yes, the, uh, the Norwegian Blue...What's,uh...What's wrong with it?
Mr. Praline: I'll tell you what's wrong with it, my lad. 'E's dead, that's what's wrong with it!
Owner: No, no, 'e's uh,...he's resting.
Mr. Praline: Look, matey, I know a dead parrot when I see one, and I'm looking at one right now.
Owner: No no he's not dead, he's, he's restin'! Remarkable bird, the Norwegian Blue, idn'it, ay? Beautiful plumage!
Mr. Praline: The plumage don't enter into it. It's stone dead.
Owner: Nononono, no, no! 'E's resting!
Mr. Praline: All right then, if he's restin', I'll wake him up! (shouting at the cage) 'Ello, Mister Polly Parrot! I've got a lovely fresh cuttle fish for you if you
show...
(owner hits the cage)
Owner: There, he moved!
Mr. Praline: No, he didn't, that was you hitting the cage!
Owner: I never!!
Mr. Praline: Yes, you did!
Owner: I never, never did anything...
Mr. Praline: (yelling and hitting the cage repeatedly) 'ELLO POLLY!!!!! Testing! Testing! Testing! Testing! This is your nine o'clock alarm call!
(Takes parrot out of the cage and thumps its head on the counter. Throws it up in the air and watches it plummet to the floor.)
Mr. Praline: Now that's what I call a dead parrot.
Owner: No, no.....No, 'e's stunned!
Mr. Praline: STUNNED?!?
Owner: Yeah! You stunned him, just as he was wakin' up! Norwegian Blues stun easily, major.
Mr. Praline: Um...now look...now look, mate, I've definitely 'ad enough of this. That parrot is definitely deceased, and when I purchased it not 'alf an hour
ago, you assured me that its total lack of movement was due to it bein' tired and shagged out following a prolonged squawk.
Owner: Well, he's...he's, ah...probably pining for the fjords.
Mr. Praline: PININ' for the FJORDS?!?!?!? What kind of talk is that?, look, why did he fall flat on his back the moment I got 'im home?
Owner: The Norwegian Blue prefers keepin' on it's back! Remarkable bird, id'nit, squire? Lovely plumage!
Mr. Praline: Look, I took the liberty of examining that parrot when I got it home, and I discovered the only reason that it had been sitting on its perch in the
first place was that it had been NAILED there.
(pause)
Owner: Well, o'course it was nailed there! If I hadn't nailed that bird down, it would have nuzzled up to those bars, bent 'em apart with its beak, and
VOOM! Feeweeweewee!
Mr. Praline: "VOOM"?!? Mate, this bird wouldn't "voom" if you put four million volts through it! 'E's bleedin' demised!
Owner: No no! 'E's pining!
Mr. Praline: 'E's not pinin'! 'E's passed on! This parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e
rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the
bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-PARROT!!
(pause)
Owner: Well, I'd better replace it, then. (he takes a quick peek behind the counter) Sorry squire, I've had a look 'round the back of the shop, and uh,
we're right out of parrots.
Mr. Praline: I see. I see, I get the picture.
Owner: I got a slug.
(pause)
Mr. Praline: Pray, does it talk?
Owner: Nnnnot really.
Mr. Praline: WELL IT'S HARDLY A BLOODY REPLACEMENT, IS IT?!!???!!?
Owner: N-no, I guess not. (gets ashamed, looks at his feet)
Mr. Praline: Well.
(pause)
Owner: (quietly) D'you.... d'you want to come back to my place?
Mr. Praline: (looks around) Yeah, all right, sure.
I happen to own a Winphone (7.5) and I think its very /very/ unlikely.
As long as Microsoft doesn't change their design and usability (combined with user friendlyness) its not going to happen any time soon and will only attract a diverse crowd by itself. Not the masses they hope for.
Example? Well, take the 'Office hub', a key feature. I open a new Word document, type in a word "test", double tap it to select it and now I want to set this to bold and italic. How to proceed?
You click the 'format' button at the bottom, then a selection comes up, allowing me to select between bold, italic, underline but also several different colours. I click 'bold' and I'm right back where I started. So now I can go again; click format, click italic and I'm done.
And this was the easy part.
When I'm taking quick notes (using OneNote) and I want something to appear in bold (not too unreasonable I'd say) then I can't just click on an icon to change the texts formatting. Because the only (directly accessible) options I have there are "format as list, add a todo check marker, insert picture, insert audio".
I have to wonder here... How often would you format text in comparison to adding pictures or audio data?
Alas; for options such as 'format' I now need to open the menu and select the option from there, and of course the same issue as mentioned above applies.
Its usable, its doable but I can't help wonder if its really as userfriendly as people claim.
As someone who uses and likes Android, my first thing to note would be: I can't edit a Word document at all! Come to that, I was surprised to see that there isn't even a notepad application as standard. I downloaded one, though it doesn't even do formatting. There's probably some that do, if I wade through the adware and crap - maybe even one with Word compatibility.
So even with the UI not perfect, I don't think that's much to criticise WP for :)
I could pick holes in the UI of Android, so I don't think this is much of a factor in market share.
Don't think of it as Microsoft and Nokia against Apple and Google. think of it as Microsoft, Nokia AND ALL THE OPERATORS. The Microsoft model of supporting operator billing for downloads means there is a lot more interest in WP8 from the people who buy all the handsets.
EE's taking Nokia 920s to launch LTE isn't so different to Orange's taking Nokia 2146es to launch PCS.
That logic only has one flaw: the operators don't really have any incentive to subsidize Windows Phone 8. Operator billing isn't interesting/valuable for high-end customers (that have either contracts or are used to app purchases using credit card data), only for low-mid range PAYG devices and developing countries, both not targets for the current set of WP devices.
Microsoft also plans to bring Skype to the mobile plane, what made them even less friends on the operator side, both from the revenue side and because it disrupts a decade of investments in the IMS(esq) network architecture they moved to when adding LTE and likely includes SIP VoIP support. But mostly because operators hate Skype.
No, what he's suggesting is that WP8 integrates Skype directly into the People Hub (WP8 Contacts centre), so that Skype can be used in the same way as normal phone calling/receiving would be done.
WP7 and WP8 are not app centric - they are task centric. The idea is that you don't need to worry about what app to use in order to do something, because the task you are doing will use the relevant services that the app exposes for that purpose.
Facebook integration was an excellent example in WP7 where Facebook events were linked to the WP7 Calendar app, Facebook images were automatically pulled and organised into the Pictures Hub along with all your other albumbs, and Facebook communications such as Chat, Likes, Comments etc were incorporated into the People Hub.
In the same way, Skype will integrate seemlessly into the WP8 operating system in a way that it support task-centric activity, as will any other 3rd party app which takes advantage of the WP8 API for this purpose.
I agree! It's not more dangerous.
In a few years time I can see voice calls disappearing completely and being replaced by VOIP. Then contract plans will simply be based on data usage, rather than Calls + Texts + Data (as it is currently). The bandwidth used by Voice and Text can then be freed up for other purposes.
It therefore makes sense to integrate VOIP apps such as Skype seemlessly into WP8, ready for the future!
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iOS and Android cannot do anything about Skype, as it's an app they have no control over it. However, Microsoft owns the Skype brand so operators see here a way to actively deliver phones that do not have Skype on it. Microsoft (obviously) refuses this, and so there are more levels to this discussion that might be aparent (including trying to sell a "convenience" package where Windows Phones with Skype are sold with a more expensive data plan). So it actively hurts device sellers makers to use Windows Phone when deailing with the operators. Just ask Elop (on last April Nokia stockholder meeting):
Stephen Elop: So, thank you for your question about Skype. Indeed, Microsoft did buy the Skype company as part of the ecosystem that comes with Windows Phone and Windows and so forth, so that’s quite correct. The feedback from operators is they don’t like Skype, of course, because for those operators who have a traditional wire-line business, traditional telephone business, it could take away from revenues.
And, so what MSFT has done – and we’ve been part of these conversations as well with operators – is as you correctly say, if operator doesn’t want Skype installed on a Windows Phone from Nokia or any other company, then the operator can make that decision.
Now, you’re right: it can be circumvented. But of course it’s on all Android devices, it’s on iPhone devices, it’s on iPad, it’s on all of those devices. So in fact what we’re doing with the operators is turning it around into an advantage. Instead of them just complaining about Skype on Android or Skype on iPhone, with Microsoft and Nokia, we can have a conversation that says “ok there, is this Skype thing, is there a different type of partnership we can do that recognizes that voice over IP like Skype is coming no matter what, but maybe we can do something creative that generates incremental revenue for you.” Some operators are looking at bundling Lumia, Skype and their own services with higher-bandwidth allotments to actually charge the consumer more and generate more revenue for them. So by actually controlling the Skype asset, we can begin a conversation about how we can have a better Skype-based relationship, which was impossible for operators to do before. So it’s actually quite a bit more advanced than whether operators like or don’t like Skype; they actually want to engage in a conversation about what does this mean and how could we do something that we couldn’t do before. Thank you.
Somewhat odd assertion about operator billing: I'm a high earner, have always had my phones on contracts, and I use operator billing exclusively.
Why? Because it costs the same, is just as quick, and it means one less company has my credit-card details filed away somewhere.
If one example isn't enough: My small app sales are >75% operator-billing, even in such "developing markets" as Germany, UK, Sweden. Actually, in every country where operator billing is available, it accounts for the majority of my sales. It's just an easier, more secure way to pay for things.
Apple doesn't do it because it means revenue sharing, and Apple's huge financial success has been down to ensuring that absolutely nobody gets a slice of their pie. Google is more open-minded, as the company makes more from advertising in "free" apps than sales: they even give the operator the entire 30% cut when purchases are operator-billed. Google, however, lacks the global reach that can let them set up deals with every carrier in every country, and Samsung, who could really help them here, are not getting involved (this is an overlooked benefit that Nokia have brought to MS - Nokia already had these arrangements in place before jumping in with MS)
On the initial question, the operators' incentive to subsidize WP8 is simple - more competition between suppliers helps to keep those suppliers honest. It also gets them out of the stupid situation where they have to spend their earnings subsidising expensive handsets rather than investing that money in their infrastructure.
That's the wider issue here: a subsidised market has lead to operators shovelling money into Apple's pockets so that customers can get an iPhone for a fraction of its true price, because iPhone is what the customers want above all other options. When subsidies started, handsets were intrinsically expensive, but this is no longer true. What happens now is that Apple in particular are continuing to charge a supernormal price for their product in a market where customers are demanding cheaper contracts, and the shortfall this creates is being plundered from infrastructure spending (or previous profits - let's not pretend the operators are angels).
With stronger competition that can offer the kind of desirable product and range of services that Apple does, operators wouldn't have to engage in such self-destructive measures. It would mean more money for them, of course, but also for infrastructure improvement, and if you're an Apple fan, it would even mean cheaper contract pricing on iPhones too, as Apple would have to soften their current stance on pricing (right now, they have no need to). Nobody would lose except the people who are expecting a $600 stock to double again.
Off topic a bit...but I do enjoy the world of fanboi-ism that the mobile market has generated. The look of dumbfounded outrage when I point out to Android and Apple fanbois that they license technologies such as Activesync from Microsoft is always worth a chuckle. In the same vein the speed at which WP users will spring to the defence of their chosen platform always makes my neck ache.
I'm not so sure that Microsoft aren't just working a 10-year plan. Nokia has only just reached the negative figures that we all knew it would reach, but the techie pundits all seemed to think would happen within a month - something which shows their massive lack of financial knowhow compared to their love of technology.
One block that kept Linux out of many vendor ranges was the way M$ used to punish those that shipped Linux systems. In fact, it got to the point where you weren't supposed to ship a blank system, it had to ship with an OS. IIRC, at one point Dell were shipping blank PCs with a copy of DrDOS in the box to get round this. There is no such ban on naked handsets or tablets, and if the vendors can make OS installation easy (say by external DVD attached via a micro-USB connector, or by an USB key on a cable) then the handset vendors could make an end run round Apple's lawyers. Phone companies could even sell the handests naked with a SIM and instructions on how to download the OS of their choice (Winphone or Android).
I have a sneaky feeling that's also why hp is still pushing WebOS, because they want to be a second option to Windows if Apple does kill or seriously impair Android on tablets.
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