back to article Lowery: The blue-collar musician at the eye of the copyright storm

A few days after we linked to his long, exhaustive talk about the state of the music business, musician and songwriter David Lowery hit the headlines in the USA. In a blog post replying to NPR intern Emily White, Lowery summed up how the 'don't pay for music' argument sounded to him: "Networks: Giant mega corporations. Cool! …

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  1. g e

    TLDR

    Although in fairness I got about half way down page 1 then scan read the rest.

    Is it me or did Lowery miss the point that pretty much the only route for money to reach these starving musicians is through the greedy megacorps?

    There's a huge number of talented musicians working their arses off every day to eke out an existence doing what they love best but if the only 'router' of funds to them is a massive self-interested corporation that had been greeding it in for years with adversely-worded contracts, 'breakage' and 'recoupment' then actually the megacorp is the point of failure for raising the lifestyles of the muso's, surely?

    I'd much rather send thirty quid to the Ozric Tentacles directly and download all their albums than £240 to get the same remuneration to them via a £210 kickback to a record company. At least, if I hadn't pretty much got all their stuff via the expensive route already. DOH.

    I think the root of the whole issue lies with the megacorps they're....

    Lazy - don't deserve my money

    Litigious - Aggression breeds comtempt

    Viewed as being in the 1% - general social fail at the moment

    Greedy - Permanent social fail, all the time

    Petty - If you're going to be like that I'll keep my money

    Vindictive - I refuse to support that behaviour with my money

    Prehistoric - Up your game and I might buy something

    Protectionist - Your protect your income and I'll protect mine - by hanging on to it

    If even you don't agree with all those descriptions you really only need to agree with any three of them to understand that the main barrier to well-earned revenue flowing to artists is these companies themselves. Yet no-one has yet come up with a credible alternative, either, at least perhaps one that hasn't been crushed into the dirt by these companies anyway. Sure the downloaders are denying musicians income in ways they don't realise (musicians do still get paid mechanicals on downloads, right? That's a direct financial loss to them) and many of these downloaders/rippers/seeders view it as a lifestyle if not some odd sort of career, it's also a lie to call a download a lost sale, too. While megacorps continue to behave and be perceived as they are now then they will still be the single greatest barrier to artists' income for the foreseeable.

    1. Andrew Orlowski (Written by Reg staff)

      Re: TLDR

      " did Lowery miss the point that pretty much the only route for money to reach these starving musicians is through the greedy megacorps?"

      Adele. Independent label.

      Maybe you've heard of her :)

      1. Sean Timarco Baggaley

        Re: TLDR

        Adele was with XL Recordings, related to the Beggars Group. Their current roster includes Sigur Ros, Radiohead (and Thom Yorke's solo works) and The White Stripes. In the past, they handled The Prodigy, among many others, so they're not exactly unknown. They're quite big by "indie label" standards. They're also "independent" only in the sense that they're not owned outright by a major recording label, but they do have very close ties with Columbia Records.

        I do think the "Mega Corporations" get a lot of stick here and it's not entirely deserved. Yes, many industry CEOs are old, crusty and need a good ousting and replacement by people who actually "get" technology. But that's the norm in any industry that's been around this long. Transitions are painful when the very business model upon which your business is founded is being chipped away beneath you and you don't know how to solve it. All those employees have bills to pay too, you know. These corporations are just a big collection of people, most of whom are not rich and are just as much a part of that 99% as you are, all trying to earn a crust; they're not inherently nasty; their bosses are just fighting increasingly desperately to keep their jobs.

        Now...

        There are two key challenges facing musicians today:

        1. How do I make my music?

        2. How do I get my music noticed?

        Both steps originally required the assistance of those mega-corp major music labels. They paid a loan up-front to the musicians, taking a gamble that the album would make a profit. (Most did not.) This still happens today, but for a much, much smaller roster of artists who are considered more likely to hit the jackpot. Risk-aversion increases rapidly when your industry is being threatened with major disruption, so this is hardly a shock.

        Today, you still need outside funding if you're working with orchestral music, but for most genres, you can create a perfectly commercial track in your bedroom, with the only expense being that of getting it mastered professionally if your home setup isn't up to it. (Mastering is all about getting the most out of a recording and making it sound good on all the various media, in all the various supported combinations of sound reproduction, such as simple stereo, 5.1 surround, Dolby Digital for cinemas, etc. This requires seriously expensive audio kit and an engineer with very good hearing.)

        That just leaves the second stage: getting yourself [i]noticed[/i]. When the barriers to entry in any industry are lowered by technology, the industry inevitably goes through a painful phase where pretty much anybody thinks they can make a hit single—and they try and do exactly that.

        This was most obvious in the early days of DTP and website design, with any number of horrific, eye-gouging, multi-coloured, multi-font excrescences appearing overnight as people with no training whatsoever decided they could have a go at it too. Mercifully, the days of Geocities websites are (mostly) over.

        But it also meant that an aspiring musician with actual talent now had to get himself noticed in a massively expanded ocean of mediocrity and shite. Marketing and self-promotion come into play. Concerts can help, but you can't just go hiring Wembley Stadium or the O2 if nobody's ever heard of you: You need to invest time, effort and, yes, money into making people aware of you and your music first. You need to climb the ladder and keep on climbing, exposing yourself to the media, doing photo-shoots, the odd panel show, umpteen interviews, etc... despite little of this having anything directly to do with the songwriting or performing you so love to do.

        THIS is where those mega-corporations do have a lot to offer: they have connections, they know people, they can get you airtime in adverts, or even a movie if you want. They can speed the process up dramatically.

        Fundamentally, when you're running any business, your goal is to improve the bottom line. And the music industry really is an business. Artists who are happy to give away all their songs aren't in that industry: they've self-selected themselves out of it and shouldn't get to vote on how it works.

        For the remaining 99% of "lower middle class" musicians, engineers, producers, lyricists, etc. making music is how they pay their bills. These people have a right to be paid for their labours as you have a right to get paid for yours.

        If anyone disagrees with that on principle, they shouldn't get to vote either.

        1. Andrew Orlowski (Written by Reg staff)

          Re: TLDR

          * Adele is still very much with XL Recordings, which is ONE OF the four Beggars Group labels (Matador, 4AD, Rough Trade are the others).

          * Beggars helped set up AIM and Impala and derailed the Sony BMG merger. It is fighting the Universal EMI merger.

          * Beggars is not a member of the BPI

          * CBS doesn't exist except as a brand name for Sony Music, and hasn't existed as a label since 1988.

          If you ever visit Beggars HQ or XL you will know what a small indie label looks like. "Big" in indie terms means fifty people in a crowded room, with no office for the CEO. Major labels send five times that to the Brits every year.

          Perhaps it's ignorance of the music business on tech sites that explains the politics people choose?

          Martin Mills interview: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/05/04/martin_mills_beggars_group/

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: TLDR

      And how do you think you know about the Ozrics? I know about them because they were promoted on a tour and I went to see them. The promotion was by the music industry.

      I have various Ozrics albums, and the ones from before they got a record label are shockingly badly produced, after this they are far better.

      I know about Eat Static because I know about Ozrics, but I know that they weren't in a position when they started to own and produce their music because of how much it cost, this was because they had a contract with a record label.

    3. I. Aproveofitspendingonspecificprojects

      Re: TLDR Tldr2.

      I gave up when I realised the man was talking about out of date digiware that costs an amateur about 20 to 30 pence to produce retail.

      Should an artist require a book, he will be forced to pay something like 4 quid apiece for each book because he can't hope to sell more than 3 or 4 hundred first editions.

      So if a CD by a professional musician costs say 5 pence to produce and another 5 to distribute, why the hell does the artist expect us proles to pay more than a tenner for the privilege of hearing his work?

      Said amateur author has to sell his book at willing local shops at a tenner apiece to make a couple of quid per volume.

      If the mass market available to amateurs on the internet were utilised musicians could sell their work at reasonable rates. Why is a corporation like Apple the only one to realise this?

      And why are all the others acting like yobs?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: TLDR Tldr2

        "So if a CD by a professional musician costs say 5 pence to produce and another 5 to distribute, why the hell does the artist expect us proles to pay more than a tenner for the privilege of hearing his work?"

        He doesn't expect you to do anything. He hopes that sufficient people will like his music and find that it gives them sufficient enjoyment to fork out around a tenner (often less). For those who don't like the music sufficiently to pay a tenner, then there's the option of taking your money and spending it on whatever gives you more pleasure than that CD.

        Your production cost estimates are (for smaller CD runs) wrong by an order of magnitude, but even those costs (say 50p for a boxed, sleeved, printed CD) don't cover the musician's instruments, recording equipment/studio hire, paid accomplices (session players, electricians, odd job monkeys), sleeve artwork, digital mastering, distribution, selling and distribution, remittance management, promotion and advertising, etc etc, and that's before the commercial risk in pre-ordering several thousands CDs, or the usually implicit cost of financing of such an investment.

        And as an author you're "forced" to pay a whole £4 a book. By whom? Are the Syrian regime's butchers holding author's knackers to ransom: "Pay four GBP per book for a four hundred book edition of Post Modernist Romantic Poetry by Bashar al Assad" or we cut them off!" I don't think so.

    4. toadwarrior
      FAIL

      Re: TLDR

      You did admit to not really reading the thing so it's no surprise your comment stinks of freetard fail.

  2. heyrick Silver badge

    On the other hand...

    " The digital rights groups have made themselves irrelevant by saying no to everything. "

    In a market notorious for protectionism and attempts at unjustified land grabs . . . Imagine where we'd be now if this hadn't been fought against? iTunes only for iDevices? Sony music only working with Sony kit? Music that reports your listening back to the publisher, and actively verifies your right to listen. God help you. If the system thinks you might have copied something.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: On the other hand...

      Historically speaking the early gramaphone records all ran at different RPMs, in order that the different recording companies could have their own copyright in the whole process, this was pretty quickly realised to be an undesirable situation. Most developments in recording and reproduction technology have been joint ventures between different recording companies.

  3. Gizzit101
    Terminator

    no objections

    To musicians and artists getting fair recompense for their efforts - but to portray all the advocates of SOPA/ACTA/DEA as blameless exploited victims is stretching the truth, more than a little.

    Don't misunderstand, I don't pirate - I either pay the price that is asked, or do without - but I grow weary of a predatory business model that seems to be predicated on abolishing personal ownership and substituting a license rental model. Perpetual payment for content - lovely. Especially in a country where even format shifting is technically illegal. They may not pursue individuals ( yet), but they could.

    I agree that artists are not adequately compensated - time for them to explore direct distribution - vide Louis CK.

    I won't steal from them, but nuts to big media anyway.

    1. AdamWill

      Re: no objections

      Note for the record: I submitted a post basically applying with Gizzit101 which accumulated over ten thumbs up (either 0 or 1 thumbs down). Woke up this morning and it had been retroactively 'rejected', and Andrew had posted several comments. Wonder what happened there, then.

  4. Oddbin

    See this is my problem with the music and movie business. There is all the talk of lost sales and people being poor and then loads of talk of the "stick" part but very little on the carrot side. If you dont even out the carrot side the stick will just put all of this further and further underground.

    Reduce the length of copyright to a more reasonable 10-20 years and then have a proper enforcement or open up the rights side so its easier for people to get access to the products on different media or any of hundreds of other things that prove the industry is trying to meet half way. There will be people who wont be placated but the majority will be happy to meet half way.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Hmm...

      I agree that the term of copyright in recordings is too long, but as by far the vast majority of music and film which is pirated is current to the last year or so, what difference do you think it will make reducing the term?

      1. Oddbin

        Re: Hmm...

        I see that as redressing the balance between copyright, which we as a society grant artists, and enforcement of that copyright. Currently no song out today will ever be out of copyright in my time. So speaking purely selfishly why would I support harsher penalties to an industry that isn't willing to play fair? By giving up that massive length of time you are showing that the industry isn't demanding or living in its own wee bubble where they can dictate what they like, as they are portrayed right now let's be honest. The return for this is that we society more rigorously defend that copyright.

        I am yet to hear anyone of the people demanding more punishment and more regulation come out with anything they are willing to give in return. Like I said more business models are needed but look at the mess of international copyright and access to music library's for services like spotify and play music.

        The same basic theory would apply to movies games and tv.

    2. toadwarrior

      The majority of peole downloading aren't going to change their minds just because the copyright has been shortened. That's not why they do it. Most peole download because it's free and easy.

      1. This post has been deleted by its author

        1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

          Re: "Most peole download because it's free and easy."

          The Oatmeal's "Game of Thrones" comic resonates with nearly everyone I know who feels the need to engage in copyright infringement. Every one of them wants to be able to pay for the content they consume. Alas, we're Canadian, and the media companies often simply decide we aren't allowed. (Or they make it possible, but so unwieldy that a psychological barrier is breached, and the ethics of copyright infringement stop mattering when compared to the frustration and hatred for the publishers caused by overwhelming megacorporate derping.)

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Ah, more whiny self-entitled "creatives". If you want to make a living out of music then fine, but don't cry about how it's no longer like the old days where record companies colluded to fix prices and created artificial scarcity our of an infinite good in order to make lots of money for very little effort.

    People were making a living by performing live music long before recorded music ever existed. I'm not saying it's going to make every artist rich, but the days of knocking out a few songs and reaping in massive amounts of cash are gone forever. If you're motivated by money then get a real job instead of expecting the rest of the world to accommodate to your desire to get rich by performing a hobby.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      No problem. If you don't want to pay for music, then we won't make it. And don't start whining about how "music was so much better in the old days".

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        It's a Deal

        Odds are your music isn't any good if it means so little to you you'd stop making it as soon as you stop getting paid. Most artists I listen to these days just stick their work up on SoundCloud and YouTube for free.

      2. Tom 35

        then we won't make it

        Sounds fair to me. If you don't get paid enough to make you happy go do something else.

        I have somewhere between 600-700 CDs but in the last year I've only bought one (and I bought that one directly from the band that was playing at a festival).

      3. I. Aproveofitspendingonspecificprojects

        Music Schmoosick

        I can knock off a relatively good poem in about half an hour. Come back to it a day or two later to give it a once over, maybe change a phrase or a couple of words. Another half an hour.

        I dare say a good musician can do something similar. There are thousands of words to make rhymes with, so it is all very easy for me. There are only 7 notes and therefore not many thousands of combinations to couple. It shouldn't be too hard to knock out a newish tune, if your audience is young, silly and inept. Pop misusick isn't even concerned with four part harmonies.

        People with pimples singing about broken hearts. FFS!

        Not even that these days, just rhyming swear words. How hard can that be?

        Writing a book takes a few months. Few authors can knock out 2 an year of any merit. But musicians will all too frequently knock out shit. Even good ones such as Johnny Cash and Willie Nelson, god help me what about Stravinsky and Rites of Spring?

        Any old tat can be given the Warhol treatment. The target customers are children after all.

        > If you don't want to pay for music, then we won't make it.

        Give me a break you tit.

        In every town in Britain you can find gifted musicians singing their own stuff for free, just happy to be in a groove on open mic. night. Now GTHOOI.

        1. Mike Flex

          Re: Music Schmoosick

          > It shouldn't be too hard to knock out a newish tune, if your audience is young, silly and inept.

          No need to bother for the young. Just recycle the old tunes. The teenFlex keeps finding "new" songs that I point out I heard 30+ years ago.

        2. Sean Timarco Baggaley

          Re: Music Schmoosick

          "I can knock off a relatively good poem in about half an hour. Come back to it a day or two later to give it a once over, maybe change a phrase or a couple of words. Another half an hour.

          I dare say a good musician can do something similar. There are thousands of words to make rhymes with, so it is all very easy for me. There are only 7 notes and therefore not many thousands of combinations to couple."

          You must really, really hate The Beatles then. Their early songs included such deep lyrical gems as: She loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah! And the not at all trite and shallow: Love Me Do

          Both "timeless classics". Apparently.

          Personally, I can't tell the difference between those song lyrics and any of the modern teenage angst shite currently in the charts, but I appear to be in a minority shared, it seems, with yourself.

          Incidentally, there are rather more than "seven notes" in music. I can see 49 of them. Just because they're labelled here in the West using a cyclic system based on letters and numbers, it doesn't mean there are only "7" of them. Each pitch is different.

          By your logic, there are only ten numbers, and arithmetic is therefore all lies.

        3. AdamWill

          Re: Music Schmoosick

          You, sir, are an utter and total nincompoop.

          It has been implied, with downvotes, but I felt it needed to be stated clearly and straightforwardly for the record.

      4. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Marcello...

        ... Then don't make it. :D

        I know many artists who do their work as a hobby. Most who get jobs see it as a privilege not a right.

    2. El Presidente
      Facepalm

      "get a real job" ? Interesting concept ..

      Freetards don't wish to pay for music so musicians should get 'real' jobs and professional musicians should downgrade themselves to hobbyists simply to accommodate the freetards.

      Good job freetards can't download the services of other professionals, isn't it ?

      Dentistry, for example.

      Had your teeth put in for stealing music by an angry hobbyist wielding a guitar? Download some teeth!

      Broken leg? Download some surgery!!

      Being sued ? Download some defence. Need your car fixing? Download a mechanic ...

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: "get a real job" ? Interesting concept ..

        Yeah, the thing is the dentist/surgeon/lawyer/mechanic generally gets paid for every time he/she performs the task they're being paid to do, they don't just do something once and then make infinite duplicates of it to sell at an inflated price point. If that were the case then, yes downloading teeth/surgery/legal defence/mechanical repairs would be fine too.

        If anything you've just reaffirmed the point I was making; if you're a musician and want to make money then perform gigs and actually work for it, rather than crying that you can no longer rely on an antiquated and artificial 20th century business model that lets you sit back and collect royalties.

        1. El Presidente
          FAIL

          Re: "get a real job" ? Interesting concept ..

          "... dentist/surgeon/lawyer/mechanic generally gets paid for every time he/she performs the task they're being paid to do, they don't just do something once and then make infinite duplicates of it to sell at an inflated price point"

          Still a performance of ability though, isn't it ?

          You wouldn't pay a back street dentist £10 for a filling any more than you would pay .99p to listen to a song made by someone unable to play an instrument.

          If it were possible to digitise, for ease of copy, the services of a dentist/surgeon/lawyer/mechanic then I'm sure the freetard movement would come up with many a justification for what is, essentially, putting people out of work so the freetard can get free stuff.

          Freetardism empowers the corporations.

          Freetardism sticks it to the individual, not the man.

        2. Sean Timarco Baggaley

          Re: "get a real job" ? Interesting concept ..

          Italian singer-songwriter Max Gazzè (who those of you outside Italy won't have heard of) is a pretty big deal in his home country. He's famous enough there that he gets recognised in the street, and he's been pretty successful as Italian musicians go over the past ten years or so.

          And, yes, he gives a lot of concerts. During the summer, he's gigging at hundreds of towns and villages around the country, often out on the road for days, for very little return—many of these concerts are benefit gigs for the likes of the earthquake-hit Emilia Romagna. I know this because he's a relative—I've even watched him recording a track. (That process takes days, incidentally. Not everyone musician has "DJ" or "MC" in their name and sits in front of a computer with a copy of Garageband, Reason, or Acid Pro, to knock out a remix or dance track in an afternoon.)

          And yet... he's made a tiny, tiny fraction—usually only five figures in any one year once everyone else has taken their cut—of what an investment banker makes for not having a fucking clue what it is he and his colleagues actually do for a living. That banker is paid ridiculous sums of money to click a few buttons that move vast sums of money around in a glorified international online casino, placing vague bets on financial "products", the contents of which appear to remain a complete mystery to all involved. Oops! We just bankrupted Iceland and brought the US, the UK and the entire Eurozone to its knees! Sorry! Can you give us some money to tide us over and keep us in the manner to which we have become accustomed? We promise not to do it again! Scout's honour!

          And yet the ire of the technorati is focused with laser-like precision on... artists. People who actually create something are getting punished, while the arseholes who created this global recession...? They're merrily spending their multi-million-dollar bailouts and bonuses. You know: the bailouts our governments unilaterally decided to pay them out of our own damned pockets. And those bonuses are apparently required in order to "attract the best talent". (Again: this is the same "talent" that has been placing billion-dollar bets on financial bullshit packages that they don't even understand. Remember that whenever you hear of more bonuses being paid.)

          Are we punishing these bankers? No. They get rewarded. Handsomely. At our expense.

          Are we punishing the politicians who blundered so badly? No. They, too, are simply re-elected and rewarded.

          There are far, far more deserving targets of your ire than people involved in an industry that's going through a painful transition. Musicians, writers, photographers, game developers and filmmakers have just as much right to earn a crust as you, or anyone else. The creative industries will adapt. What they need are viable solutions, not a horde of ignorant whiners complaining that they have to pay for services rendered.

          1. AdamWill

            Re: "get a real job" ? Interesting concept ..

            "And yet... he's made a tiny, tiny fraction—usually only five figures in any one year once everyone else has taken their cut—of what an investment banker makes for not having a fucking clue what it is he and his colleagues actually do for a living."

            That's not an argument that's going to get you anywhere with...well, almost any audience, really, but certainly not one on the Reg. Probably 99% of the people reading this get paid less than investment bankers do, for doing a lot more.

            Aside from that, though, interesting post, thanks.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: "get a real job" ? Interesting concept ..

              "That's not an argument that's going to get you anywhere with...well, almost any audience, really"

              Indeed. "Oh no, only five figures a year (like almost everyone else then). The poor starving artists."

        3. Fibbles
          Facepalm

          Re: "get a real job" ? Interesting concept ..

          "If anything you've just reaffirmed the point I was making; if you're a musician and want to make money then perform gigs and actually work for it, rather than crying that you can no longer rely on an antiquated and artificial 20th century business model that lets you sit back and collect royalties."

          Lets say an album costs $20k to produce (studio time, album artwork, etc.). In the real world a musician sells many copies of this album so that the costs to an individual consumer are relatively low but the investment on the album is recouped and if they're lucky they might even make a profit*. In your world selling more than one copy is corporate fascism so the musician is forced to sell one copy priced to cover the production costs and make some profit, lets say $25k. Who the hell is going to pay $25k for one album?

          If all music is performed live and nobody is willing to pay for it to be professional recorded because they'll never make their money back, does this mean that all recorded music will be in the form of shaky smartphone videos recorded at a gigs? Bugger that for a game of soldiers.

          *Yes, the music cartels will be involved at some point taking an unreasonable cut but this is a side issue.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Sigh.

            Dear god, for a start it doesn't need to cost anything like $20k to produce an album these days. How about if you're just starting out you make your music on the cheap, and if you're successful then you can afford to splash out on expensive studio time and production - y'know like the way it already works in the real world.

            Secondly, I never suggested artists only sell one album nor made hyperbolic statements about "corporate fascism". I suggested that comparing musicians to other professionals was pointless because professionals are paid for their time and work on an ongoing basis, not for doing something once then paid multiple times for it. My main point is that it's just a ridiculous and stupid comparison to begin with, the live performance thing is an aside. But addressing it anyway you'd most likely still find recorded music available, even if it wasn't paid for, for promotional reasons alone (why do people make expensive music videos when no-one really pays for them?). I mean, Christ, plenty of artists are making music and distributing it for free because - unbelievably to some here perhaps - they actually enjoy making music and having other people here it, and monetary reward is just a bonus.

            The fact is the genie is out of the bottle now, we're never going back to the days of paying £15 for an album, music is essentially going to be free or close to free in some form or another (e.g. advertising supported, all-you-can-eat streaming services for a nominal sum, etc.) All whining from musicians is going to do is alienate consumers further from traditional music industry models.

          2. Dave the Cat
            Stop

            @ Fibbles

            "*Yes, the music cartels will be involved at some point taking an unreasonable cut but this is a side issue."

            No, the music cartels taking a disproportionate cut of the profits is THE issue.

      2. Syd

        Re: "get a real job" ? Interesting concept ..

        Actually, the upper-end of the medical profession (surgeons/ dental surgeons/ etc.) are *highly* vulnerable to being replaced by technology within the next 50 years. You will be diagnosed by a computer that scans your body, and you will be operated on by nanobots which don't even need to break the skin. It is going to be an interesting process too - I don't expect the medical profession to go down without a fight; but go down they will.

      3. Tom 35
        FAIL

        Re: "get a real job" ? Interesting concept ..

        The Dentist, surgeon, mechanic only get paid once.

        The mechanic is not expecting to get paid every time I drive my car, and I'm sure they don't expect there grandchildren to get paid for the work they did today.

        A lot like a live performance...

        The record companies are not selling a service, they are selling a copy of something, and you can always make another copy.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: "get a real job" ? Interesting concept ..

          @Tom 35 - How do you propose that a musician can earn a living if they are only paid once? Who would pay them? How much would they be paid? Who has the rights to the music after the payment?

          What about the musicians who can't or won't play live? What about musicians with families who can't do epic world tours, in order to earn a fairly small amount of money? (Only very large bands rake it in from tours.)

          1. Tom 35

            Re: "get a real job" ? Interesting concept ..

            @ AC - "How do you propose that a musician can earn a living if they are only paid once?"

            You miss my point. The original post that I replied to was a load of crap. It compared people who preform a service and only get paid once, to the selling of copy of something, that can it's self be copied.

            But since you asked, the same way as everyone else in the world? How do all the technicians, artists, studio floor sweepers earn a living when they only get paid once when they make a record?

        2. TheOtherHobbes

          Re: "get a real job" ? Interesting concept ..

          Getting paid once is orthogonal to the main point - which is that creative professionals are *professional.*

          Being *professional* means it takes you a long time to get good at something. You have to learn a lot, practice a lot, and then - eventually - you can start making some money.

          If you're an amateur, you are not a professional - by definition. Since no one sane is going to want to see a weekend doctor, dentist, car mechanic, lawyer, what exactly is it about working in the arts that makes people suddenly think 'Oh hey - no one needs to do this job full time. A hobby is just fine'?

          Because - you know - working 14 hour days in a studio, or on tour, or in a serial TV show, or on a movie set, is just piss easy and not real work at all.

          "The record companies are not selling a service, they are selling a copy of something."

          Where do you think the original thing that gets copied comes from?

          Here's an idea - maybe somebody actually has to take the time to make it.

          I know that's a revolutionary concept to the freetards, but there it is.

          And if you have a problem with, presumably you wouldn't mind me hacking into your bank account and copying the balance there.

          It's all just bytes, after all, and why should you care if your cash is copied all over the internet?

          Oh wait - you're going to tell me that's different, aren't you?

          So now you're saying that money should be copy protected? And you believe in copyright after all then?

          Ah. So when it's *your* stuff it's suddenly a Big Deal.

          Yeah. Whatever.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: "get a real job" ? Interesting concept ..

            Trying to suggest the the work and effort (and money) required to become a professional doctor/dentist/mechanic/lawyer is analogous to becoming a professional musician is asinine. Bands like Metallica were releasing their first albums when they were teenagers, having only been playing a few years. Music for the most part is a hobby that can make money from, it's not a professional that requires the level of investment and commitment as the ones you're trying to compare it to. Oddly the exceptions, such as playing a classical instrument in an orchestra professionally are the ones where they are paid the same as doctors/dentists/ et al and paid per performance rather than in royalties. Which undermines this sense of self-entitlement coming from artists like Lowery even more.

            1. toadwarrior

              Re: "get a real job" ? Interesting concept ..

              Children can program, run servers, etc so maybe IT jobs pay should be more in line with pocket money.

              1. Mike Flex

                Re: "get a real job" ? Interesting concept ..

                > Children can program, run servers, etc so maybe IT jobs pay should be more in line with pocket money.

                My last employer was ahead of you there.

  6. Jason Hindle

    I have no issue at all with artists being paid for their creations. However, there has pretty much always been mega corps involved and unless a band owned their own publishing company, their cut per record sale has always been small. Of course, we have models that sort of respect artists in the digital age, like iTunes (open enough, if you don't mind burning a CD) and Spotify though I'm guessing the cut the artists get from this is frighteningly small.

    The truth is, unless you're one the industry's A listers, the real money in the music business has always been made out on the road.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      @Jason

      "...The truth is, unless you're one the industry's A listers, the real money in the music business has always been made out on the road...."

      Complete rubbish. Small and increasingly medium popularity level bands simply can't do successful tours, it costs far to much money, they may well break even, but a couple of nights with a poor turn out can result in total loss of any profits from a tour. Also the more people in the band, the harder it is to make any money.

      Yes, I do know what I'm talking about I have gone on tour, as a lighting guy.

    2. Sean Timarco Baggaley
      FAIL

      @Jason Hindle:

      "However, there has pretty much always been mega corps involved and unless a band owned their own publishing company, their cut per record sale has always been small."

      "small" is still > bugger all. This is the fundamental point of the anti-counterfeiting argument. Those mega-corps have as much right to recoup their expenses as the artist does, and the vast majority of artists are fully aware of the contents of their contracts. They sign anyway because a little bit of a big slice of cash is still a shitload more than they'll ever get from freeloaders, who will pay the artist precisely bugger all because this—in their tiny, misguided and ignorant little minds—is apparently going to harm the big record labels. Even more bizarre is the attitude that artists are supposed to thank them for this!

      The ONLY people who are hurt by counterfeiting and the anti-Copyright movement are the artists. Google are actually salivating over the prospect of free access to every book, photo, video and music track ever created in order to sell you advertising on the back of it.

      Be very, very careful when advocating an anti-Copyright position. Follow the money. Killing copyright protection for the artists will ONLY benefit the very mega-corporations you profess to detest.

  7. Camilla Smythe

    A Dichotomy

    For Every U2 you get a million dregs left to rot... or a few forced down people's faces by Mr High Waste Trouser Band Man.

    Turn it on its head..

    For every Google/Phorm/Sony/PMSAss you get multi-multi-million people having 'behavioural advertising' forced upon them without their knowledge or consent.

    That's about the limit of my socio-mumble-bumble.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: A Dichotomy

      If ever there was an good pro-piracy argument then U2's dire warblings and inexplicable success has to be it.

  8. Richard 12 Silver badge
    FAIL

    Did he proof read this?

    "I've never seen a brand like Coca Cola, a real mainstream American brand on ad networks. They censor that too."

    No, that's not censorship, it's Coca Cola deciding where to put their advertising money.

    I do agree with Lowery on one thing - "You can't argue with someone that disingenuous" - but that statement flies both directions, and to date the copyright lobbyists have been the most disingenuous of all.

    What we consumers want is to be able to purchase music at a sensible price, know that a decent portion of our money is going to the artist(s) who made it, and that we can listen to that music which we have paid for anywhere, anywhen and anyhow that we choose.

    We resent and fight against the way that the megacorps have tried make us re-buy the same music over and over again, treated us all like criminals and even got taxes applied to blank media to 'reclaim' some of that 'lost' revenue.

    We further resent and fight against the ridiculous length of copyright. When my parents were teens, their parents' music went out of copyright, and was re-used and re-generated into new works.

    When my kids are teenagers, everything my parents grew up with will still be in copyright.

    Is it any wonder people don't have any respect for the music industry?

    Personally, I no longer buy any music at all, I just listen to "MTV"-like channels and the radio. Why? Because I resent being treated like a criminal whenever I do buy music. I suspect I'm not alone.

    Finally, SOPA was written by extremists. Is it any surprise that this pushed many 'reasonable' people into becoming extremists, as that was necessary to shoot it down!

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