back to article Stop sexing up IT and give Civil Servants Macs, says gov tech boss

The man in charge of the government's IT efficiency drive has told MPs that Whitehall should use more Apple Macs while castigating the previous government for trying to sex-up IT projects. Ian Watmore, COO of the Efficiency and Reform Group, told the public administration committee that Labour had poured cash into computer …

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  1. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Down

    You can't buy this sort of marketing.

    What next? Calls for Coca-cola to be the official government soft drink?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Jobs Horns

      their idrink

      Or kool aid :D

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Down

    oh dear

    Government has clearly wasted huge amounts on prooly-specified, poorly-delivered IT projects. No argument there.

    But there aren't many hard-nosed businesses that have adopted Apple products for their corporate IT. There are good reasons for this, and they amount to more than prejudice and inertia.

    1. Dr Who

      Yes indeed

      It's all down to a lack of attention to detail, which leads to prooly spilled wurds and hyphens where-there shouldn't be any!

      1. DavCrav

        Srsly?

        "It's all down to a lack of attention to detail, which leads to prooly spilled wurds and hyphens where-there shouldn't be any!"

        Seriously? You are going to criticize someone based on a typo ("prooly" is obviously a typo, not a genuine error) and not knowing that there is no hyphen in adverb-adjective combinations? I have seen very few people (and these include journalists, authors, etc.) who accurately hyphenate, and this excludes me.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          poorly projects

          In my defence, poorly could be an adjective as well as an adverb, especially where Government projects are concerned. Making clear that it qualifies the following adjective doesn't seem so unreasonable to me. So 'tis a grammatical slip to be sure, but from the best of motives, and without introducing additional ambiguity (which is, surely, the point of grammar).

      2. This post has been deleted by its author

    2. GeorgeTuk
      WTF?

      Title....was dat?

      And what about sense, not many business applications run natively in OSX.

      Not talking Word, Excel thats easy, I'm talking SAP, Dynamics and any other BI or ERP.

      And tried a few Macs (for display) to test for Terminal Services too, way too much hassle and whats the point after connecting to a server you have lost the point.

      1. Mark 65

        @GeorgeTuk

        Then perhaps the answer is to run cheap little low powered end-points (Linux?) with centrally served apps for the majority and VMs for those that are outside of the norm. Government is one area where I'd imagine a standardised centrally administered and secured desktop would be a bonus given their propensity to lose data.

        1. GeorgeTuk
          Thumb Up

          @ Mark65 and others

          Sorry was meant to say it was not my choice to try Macs, I am testing your theory at the moment and have been with some users for a few months.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Boffin

    And the guy wants to put in Mac's?

    He's obviously an idiot when it comes to IT.

    1. Ammaross Danan
      Linux

      Idiot

      "Watmore told the committee that in his personal view, the government should use more Apple products, just like the ones he uses at home."

      Could have guessed the "because it works at home" angle. Last I checked, a Windows Domain was a lot easier to manage and lock down. Of course, the this says just how much he knows about Apple or IT:

      "which is all about smaller, more agile, more efficient projects with a bigger emphasis on open source."

      While Open Source does make projects perhaps more agile, it definitely doesn't always lead to "more efficient" nor "smaller." Likely can save some money if a current staffer is already familiar with the FOSS in question....And no, Apple is not "Open Source," they just built a GUI on BSD.

      1. InITForTheMoney
        Megaphone

        It's not just about lock down...

        One of the key issues with mobile government data assets is that they have to be encrypted with a Government Encryption algorithm while data is at rest, this means that you need a full disk encryption product installed within all laptops and any desktops that might be kept or transported through locations of low physical security.

        At the present time, there is no software based full disk encryption solution (supporting these algorithms) that works with Mac's and there is no Hardware based encrypted disk that supports the EFI bootstrap process that Mac's use to launch OSX.

        This is the first hurdle that needs to be cleared, without it, if you put protectively marked data obove a certain confidentiality level on to a Mac, then that machine has to be kept in a physically secure location, or shipped around with an armed guard! Even with data at the lowest level it would need to be stored in a locked box that was bolted in to a vehicle if you shipped it around anywhere.

        The reason that Mac's aren't used much in government is because there is no way to get around this one simple fact and until there is a company that can put a government algorithm in to an encryption product that supports Mac's, this isn't going to change.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          FAIL

          Wrong, wrong, wrong.

          Firstly, PGP Full Disk Encryption fully complies with Home Office requirement.s I should know, we use it on all our computers, to comply with such requirements!

          Secondly, said software is fully Mac compatible. Again, I should know, we've been installing it on MacBook Pro, MacBook Airs, and the like for the last year.

          As for AD integration with Macs, with all appropriate access control, easy - we've got our Macs bound into AD right now. Failing that, there's OD - which manages Macs natively.

          We have around 4:6 in favour of Mac in our estate, and while we do get plenty of calls from mac users, they tend to be either that the hardware has failed, or a windows based service isnt working properly. Most of the real head scratchers are Windows machines that aren't doing what they should do properly.

          Oh, and we manage our Macs very well with jamf Casper suite - which is superior to many PC based solutions like Landesk for auditing, policy control and deployment.

          The real problem is that most IT systems managers havent got the first idea what they are talking about when it comes to Mac, they just sniff and turn up their nose bcause they see them as expensive toys, and not for Real Men.

          This thread has demonstrated exactly that.

          That said, it doesn't help that Apple hasn't the slightest interest in Enterprise level software and hardware - they only want to sell laptops and desktops along with iPads and iPhones.

          That doesnt mean that integrating into enterprise is difficult or impossible!

          1. Anonymous Coward
            IT Angle

            FURTHER INFORMATION: PGP Whole Disk Encryption...

            http://www.pgp.com/caps/

            1. James 36
              FAIL

              PGP CAPS approval

              http://www.cesg.gov.uk/find_a/caps/index.cfm?menuSelected=11&displayPage=1111&id=139

              As clearly stated in the above link the only OS's that have CAPS approval for baseline are Windows OS variants . Mac is not mentioned on the CESG website which supercedes any BS you have been spun by the manufacturer. As long as your accreditor is aware it will be fine though as he/she may have accepted the risk based on its approval for Windows.

          2. InITForTheMoney

            @AC re: Wrong, wrong, wrong

            Actually, your wrong... and I can tell you this because I regularly ask within Industry for solutions that support Macs and when they will be available, believe it or not, I am not a Windows zealot and I am a Mac user (I'm writing this on my own MBP in fact), I've been using and supporting Mac's since 93 and I think I have a pretty good grasp of their capabilities by now, having also worked in Government for the last 7 years I think I also know in which environments I can use them and which I cant. However, unlike some I am more concerned with selecting an appropriate tool to meet requirements, rather than trying to shoehorn something I like in to a function it's not suitable for.

            As has been pointed out by another poster, the target of evaluation for PGP full disk encryption does not cover the Mac version, if your accreditor is allowing you to use it, thats up to him if he wants to accept that risk, it probably means that your system has a pretty low risk profile attached and your data is probably mostly ILO-IL2 with only small amounts of IL3 data (if any). Either that, or the accreditor simply doesn't know the TOE for the product and he's mistaken in thinking that it's approved... it wouldn't surprise me.

            A good architect will read the TOE for any security enforcing products he or she selects and will document how that product's configuration meets or contravenes the TOE so that the accreditor is informed. If you haven't read the TOE for products you utilise and your an architect in government, then you haven't done your job properly.

            Even when used in an evaluated configuration, PGP Full disk encryption is only good enough for _Baseline_ level encryption, not Enhanced Grade or High Grade, which means you can only use it on RESTRICTED (IL3) systems... you don't even need a government disk encryption product for a RESTRICTED system, you can use Vista or Windows 7's Bitlocker feature and be compliant with a tiny piece of configuration... it's hardly much of a bar to reach these days, yet the Mac has nothing that fits the bill and Apple are not concerned about addressing that issue, why should they be? It's not a core market for them.

        2. Francis Fish
          Troll

          I've had an encrypted home directory on my Mac for years

          Seriously, it's two mouse clicks.

          I would also lay money that most of the govt pc's have no encryption at all. Straw man time.

      2. Michael C

        AD easier to secure?

        Well, no actually. LDAPS is easier to secure, and especialyl in government where there are both legacy novel systems, RACF on mainframes, and a littany of Linux and UNIX servers, AD is rarely the top level authentication system.

        All you Windows trolls always assume that just because the PCs use AD that means everything else does too.

        macs are in fact AD native. they have few OU and GPO settings, but that's because they don;t need many. They natively talk to Exchange 2007/2010, connect to SMB shares, use MS Office, and are very easy to centrally manage and secure through Apple's enterprise tools and super cheap server OS.

        The TCO of individual workstations is also less for Mac than Windows, even counting as much as a $400 premium for the hardware (which is much less in corporate circles since companies don;t buy $400 laptops and desktops, macs are typically within $100 of business system cost for the same performance and size class, and in some cases are cheaper). Winn Schwartzau (probably spelled that wrong) did a great TCO analysis a few years ago for a large firm, and Macs were clear across the board cheaper, mostly because of greatly reduced IT and helpdeks hands-on support time with each machine. They also resell well vs the $50 you can sometimes get for a 4 year old Dell ,and that factors into IT finance too.

    2. Giles Jones Gold badge

      An idiot goes with the flow

      Why?

      Is it better that they go with cash in hand straight to Microsoft without evaluating the competition?

      Anyone doing a deal should always have a plan B to use as a bargaining chip. Microsoft office for instance is vastly overpriced for what it actually provides. It may have been an essential tool back when documents were laid out, printed and read. But these days you're more likely to read a website.

      1. Matthew 4
        Coat

        no..

        If you have ever worked in a Govt department you would know things are printed (in triplicate) and sent, even if never actually read.

    3. Richard Taylor 2
      FAIL

      well

      he probably wants to put in macs - and can punctuate :-)

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      And the justification is...?

      @AC: "And the guy wants to put in Mac's? He's obviously an idiot when it comes to IT"

      I've seen reports on ROI and support costs that rated Apple gear pretty highly. Perhaps thats no longer true, but I'd be reluctant to call someone "an idiot" for exploring that option. I don't need external data to know that Apple equipment is typically very long-lived. As with most things, you get what you pay for.

      Otherwise, it's entirely possible the suggestion stacks up. There's a good case to be made for buying quality equipment, even (or particularly) in times of austerity, bearing in mind that the initial capital cost of equipment is a small fraction of overall IT costs. I've never seen a study that showed Apple equipment to significantly raise IT costs, but please link to such a report if you've seen one.

      1. Geoff Campbell Silver badge
        FAIL

        @Ralph

        He didn't call for the option to be explored. He called for Macs to be issued, because they work for him at home. That is an idiotic thing to say.

        Moreover, I'm glad you don't need external data to know all about Apple reliability. Shame you're wrong, really:

        http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/17/laptop-reliability-survey-asus-and-toshiba-win-hp-fails/

        GJC

    5. Chris 3

      Mac's what?

      hmmm?

    6. rotting apple Silver badge
      Coat

      He wants Macs from Apple?

      After a performance like that, I hope serving Big MACS and APPLE Apple pies is his next JOB. However, McDonalds may have a high enough bar for him to fail at the first hurdle.

      Too much wishful thinking on my part. Must remember to keep taking the tablets.

  4. Juillen 1
    Headmaster

    Read from a certain angle..

    There may be truth in what the guy recommends. However, there's very little detail as to why he considers this.

    Without seeing the real plans.. Think we're all in the dark as to the intent behind the phrasing..

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Coat

    A Noms project?

    Are they mad? Do they really want be be lolcatted to death?

    Anyway, come to the Mac Side. We can haz toys.

  6. Alex Brett

    Open source

    The beeb article also has some mentions around open source:

    He insisted the government was committed to using more "open source" software to save cash - but had to balance this with concerns about how easily it could be "hacked".

    I'm confused as to the logic of that statement - if they'd said something about useability concerns sure, there's an argument to be made there (not saying I necessarily agree with it, but there is contention), however to say that we can't use open source because it's easily hacked is ridiculous...

    1. Naughtyhorse
      Thumb Up

      you mean...

      you got that far before deciding this bloke is a complete ARSE!

      well done you!

      1 bit of good news for the economy, the IT gravy train will resume normal service shortly.

      1. Alan 6

        Economy

        "1 bit of good news for the economy, the IT gravy train will resume normal service shortly."

        Yes, but if he has his way it won't be the UK economy that improves, the sales will go to Cupertino...

        1. Naughtyhorse
          Happy

          ah i didn thtink that far ahead

          oh noes!!!

    2. Bill 11
      Jobs Horns

      Hacking Open Source

      So you would think but more Linux boxes are hacked than Windows boxes. This is often because the sys-admins do not know what they are doing with Linux / Unix but it is way cooler saying you are a Linux guru compared to, say, a Windows Nerd even when you're not

      Stats (zone-h 2008- 2010)

      Linux 352.468 378.744 256.648

      W2003 117.978 127.128 81.785

      W2000 21.929 12.529 2.805

      1. lurker
        Linux

        @Bill 11

        What you're completely failing to take into account there is that those are Defacement statistics for websites. Since Apache on Linux is massively more widely used than IIS on Windows, those stats are hardly surprising. But if you look at computers being subverted and becoming part of a botnet, that's almost exclusively a windows problem. Using those figures to say that 'more linux boxes are hacked than windows boxes' is misleading, to say the least.

      2. Steven Knox
        FAIL

        @Bill 11

        Where are the Windows XP, Vista, 7, and Server 2008 boxes on this list of yours? Oh, nowhere, because your list only counts defaced websites, not hacked systems. The government doesn't store all (or even a significant* portion) of its data on web servers, and the potential for open source doesn't begin or end at web servers.

        So you've picked the one major market where Linux is much more prevalent than Windows to begin with (thus increasing the odds that a hack will hit a Linux box. Indeed if you normalized those numbers as a percentage of systems out there [i.e, the at least slightly relevant statistic in a decision of this type], I bet you'd find that the percentage of Linux-based boxes hacked would come out looking pretty good), and you're using that to justify your FUD about hackability of open source software? That's like saying that women are better drivers than men because more men crash in NASCAR races than do women (i.e, it's based on non-normalized data from a non-representative sample set -- and the data doesn't even relate directly to the question being asked anyway.)

        *Significant as in volume, not as in impact. A single piece of data stored on a public server may have a significant impact.

        1. The BigYin

          @Steven

          Also, it is rarely (if ever) Linux that gets hacked. It's usually some poorly configured web application that has had the security set to "Ass out window, underpants optional".

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Megaphone

      Yes but

      the mistake you are making in seeking logic here is to assume the man who was put in charge of huge white elephants in early 2000's, then leaves to run some football organisation, and then comes back to clean up the I.T. mess actually knows what he is talking about when it comes to I.T.

      Previously he worked for one of the big 5 firms and has adopted a classic consultancy ethos.

      Come in on the premise you are fixing something, break it, get out before the blame lands, come back and fix it again at a higher day rate...

      that is all!

    4. mfraz

      Hackers?

      Open source software is created by hackers, I think he meant to say crackers.

  7. Kerry Hoskin
    FAIL

    Is Wantmore for real?!

    Is this clown for real? Now I don’t doubt that new Labour tried to Billy bullshit IT projects, as they did with everything else, but what is he going on about!? On one hand wanting more open source and a move from MS products and on the other wanting more Apple toys to be used, Apple being the most insular and proprietary IT (gadget) company going.

    Our CEO is a bit of a MAC fanboi so we recently priced up a lease agreement for some MAC’s it worked out at £300 PER UNIT more expensive than the DELL Optiplex’s we normally lease and still £180 per unit more expensive than an equivalent spec DELL, as the lowest spec MAC’s were over spec for our normal requirements. And this doesn’t take in to account duplicating our software estate, extra staff training, support costs, loads more extra work integrating the bleedy things and the fact that the support is shite, back to base rather than one site and only 1yr access to their support services.

    I think Mr Wantmore YOU were part of the problem and STILL are!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Jobs Horns

      Ahh good old Mac users...

      ...we have a user at work who has a laptop, when he had some issues with it he said "we should use Macs, they never go wrong". Sure we COULD use Macs, but then we'd never get the software to run natively on OSX, so we'd still have to bung Windows on them and have the same issues.

      Luckily this guy doesn't have any say in what hardware is purchased.

      (As it happens, I have a Mac at home, an old iMac G3, makes a great door stop, maybe one day I'll turn it into a fish tank).

  8. Dr. Mouse

    Apple...

    They should "use more Apple products" during an "efficiency drive"?!

    We recently had a similar experience. One of our higher-ups decided that, for the upgraded systems we were putting in place, he wanted Macs.

    Not only did they cost more than twice the price of the faster hardware we specced for him, the software *wouldn't even run natively* on Mac OSX. We would have had to either boot them into RHEL or run RHEL in a VM to make it work.

    He just wanted Macs.

    In the end we managed to slap him with a wet kipper (well, go over his head explaining the massive waste of resources he wanted to engage in) and he got a bunch of generic very fast workstations (the sort that starts tingly feelings in unmentionable areas) for half the cost, but he wasn't happy (I WANT A MAC WAH WAH WAH!!)

    1. Thomas 4

      You are very cruel to deny him a Mac

      I'm sure you can still find a first generation iMac (the huge heavy multicoloured ones) floating around somewhere and then downgrade it to OS 9.

      1. vulcan
        Thumb Up

        Snap

        Ooo, that sounds just like the place I used to work for!

      2. Wibble
        Happy

        Or an etch-a-sketch

        http://www.dilbert.com/strips/comic/1995-04-03/

    2. jcipale
      Black Helicopters

      My experience with macs

      Has been that you couldnt pay me money to own one. (Hand-)Jobs has down a marvelous job of not only dumbing down the hardware/OS, but making it difficult at best for people who need to do real work on their device.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Boffin

      Efficiency?

      My other half works in one of the new-fangled (or are they just fangled) academies. As I've been working nearby recently I often go in with her and kill time there before going to my job. Over the days I've managed to have a look at almost evey room. I noticed that there were more than the average number of imacs in the place - particularly in the offices and admin places. Most of the classroom have 25 or so HP CPUs with CTX screens. I also noticed that with the exception of the imacs in the music room, most ofd the iMacs were running Windows 7. The staff are provided with Laptops - mostly Toshibas, but a fair number of teachers appear to have provided their own and they are using Macbooks.

      This Monday morning I met one of the IT techs in the academy coffee shop (yes - and it's good coffee too!) and asked him why they had the imacs in the admin and HR departments when they appeared to be booted into Windows. He said that it was a suprise to him when he arrived and they even had them in the IT support unit. But, he said, in all honesty, Windows 7 and all our windows apps run much better and more reliably on the Macs than they do on the HPs.

      Perhaps that's the efficiency he's talking about.

  9. Elmer Phud
    IT Angle

    Macs are cheaper?

    Blimey, can he get me one, too.

    And do they really need Macs to do thier work? Which would you prefer to steal on a train?

  10. Anonymous Coward
    FAIL

    An insidious smell

    How to spot an idiotic politician:

    1) Blaming previous people in power - check

    2) Not actually a trained professional in the field - check (An accountant by trade)

    3) Blaming corporate entities, when he was the managing director of a corporate entity in the field - check

    4) Despite what little understand they could glean from their background, in the end fall back on an idiotic conclusion which is quite frankly akin to what a child could infer - "Use what I use at home." - check

    I say get rid of the number cruncher and appoint someone that can form a coherent argument based on valid information.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Go

    Spot-on analysis

    And I've worked on nothing but government IT for 8 years. IT Companies knew how bad project management was, and took advantage. Even the systems that worked cost much more than they should have done.

    All we need now is for Whitehall to set up a central development organisation, pay industry rates, and give good training. They'll save a packet. An absolute packet.

    1. david 63

      I refer the honorable gentleman...

      ...to my earlier post.

      Over here http://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/1/2011/03/30/cabinet_office_ict_strategy/

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