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back to article Firefox joins Microsoft in uncool kids class

After more than a decade of slugging it out with Microsoft for supremacy, Mozilla's Firefox now claims 24 per cent of the global browser market, according to Net Applications. Like clockwork, Firefox gouged five per cent of Microsoft's Internet Explorer market share each year - until now. Since October 2009, Firefox has …

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  1. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge
    Linux

    So what browser do people really use?

    90% Firefox

    9% Chrome

    1% IE6

    Yeah, I know that is silly but there are a few apps on our Corporate XP laptop build that insist in spawning IE6.

    Oh, the Corporate expenses system only works with IE6.

    With all the 'noise' this wek about XP support, our XP support people are not gonig to uptate our installls for another 2 years... WTF?

    Two more years of McAfee taking 200Mb of RAM. that you can't kill due to group security policies.

    IE + Windows + AD = Fail

    Tux Naturally...

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    1. Wibble
      Reply Icon
      Thumb Up

      Lies, damn lies and browser statistics

      There's no doubt that Firefox was the developer's favourite and that anyone using IE by choice can hardly be considered sane enough to be called a web developer. But there's no getting away from the fact that Chrome's an excellent development tool. Now with add-ons, Chrome's only missing the excellent Firebug and developer tool maturity of Firefox.

      IE's still around and even IE6 won't go away all the time that stupid IT departments keep seeing the browser as, well, just a browser and not the delivery mechanism for all applications. Who needs thick clients when you only really need a browser? And when browsers do all the HTML5 coolness - local storage, persistent state, fast JavaScript compilers, etc., they'll only be more questions about the need for thick clients and thick-headed IT managers who buy this crap.

      Microsoft only have Ballmer to blame for this. It was he who disbanded the IE development team leaving IE to stagnate -- screwing millions of web developers in the process.

      It's such fun to watch Microsoft finally take a thoroughly deserved beating.

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      1. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Firebug?

        Have I missed some functionality? The only thing Chrome's missing is YSlow. As I use the funky event stuff far more than I check YSlow, Chrome wins.

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      2. JimC
        Reply Icon
        Flame

        >Who needs thick clients whn you only need a browser

        Because out in the real world of supporting users who care little about computers and even less about platforms many web implementations replace thick clients that you can manage, can configure and can understand with hideous amounts of downloaded plugins and java applets you can't manage, can't configure, and can't understand. Well written web applications that deliver legal non-proprietary html and do everything on the server aren't a problem of course, but as the sales droids ratchet onto "web delivered must be best" it feels as if I'm seeing less and less of them... Junk apps are junk apps, whether by browser, thick client or what, but at least if they are on a thick client you have a better chance of keeping them under control and integrating them with the other things the user needs...

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        1. Rick Giles
          Reply Icon
          FAIL

          I agree

          "Junk apps are junk apps, whether by browser, thick client..."

          Where I work, we have and in house app built on Progress that, every time they update it, we end up having to uninstall it and then reload it on a bunch of PC's. Doing that requires us to either remote the PC or physically touch it to perform the exorcism. And there is a mandatory reboot between the uninstall and re-install.

          On the flip side of that, they have a web based app that steals the focus of the other windows so if you get a pop up from one of the other apps you can't click on it until you close the web app. What this then does in the web app is you can't use the tab key to navigate the many fields that need some form of input. And we can't do aything about it as it is handled by a third party and they won't let us talk to them about it.

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    2. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      No, your FAIL is closer to home....

      No, that's YOUR XP support people.

      Have them sacked, or shot, or sent back to school or something.

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  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Anti-MS only goes so far

    I'm not saying that there aren't good reasons for using Firefox, but for many people it was "Not IE" that they wanted.

    Chrome is just a browser and it works pretty good; Thats why I use it.

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    1. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Flame

      FF team has reverted to copying the stupidities from IE, that's bad.

      "I'm not saying that there aren't good reasons for using Firefox, but for many people it was "Not IE" that they wanted."

      Well put.

      Nowadays FF seems not to know that they are not IE version "next", but an alternative and developers are trying to make it as IE-like as IE itself, essentially driving every alternative seeker to other browsers, ie. Chrome.

      That's plain stupidity and arrogance: _People are not using FF because it's like IE, but because it's not like IE_.

      It should be totally different, because frankly there aren't any good ideas in IE and copying it is plain stupidity. You couldn't invent anything worse even if you tried, so _do not copy IE_.

      How hard is that to comprehend, tell me, FF developer team?

      (Latest stupidity: Mandatory grouping of history by date, no way to see a flat list, anywhere. A stupidity staight from IE. Why?)

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  3. Monty Burns
    Unhappy

    Finger friendly

    All these comments are on my Hp TX2:

    Only two browsers work in a finger friendly style for me, IE and Firefox. Sadly IE seems to have some bug where you try to enter text on it and occasionaly it gets serious lag and looses key presses. So, Firefox it is. Tbh, apart from this bug, I couldn't care less which of the two I use.

    Tried Chrome and it aint finger friendly for me. Tried Opera as it works fantasticly on my phone (HD2) but again, not touch friendly....

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    1. Wibble
      Reply Icon

      Keypresses - IE Skype addin?

      Loosing keypresses - check that the Skype addin on IE isn't causing grief. This was the problem on a client's machine recently - and I took the blame prior to this.

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  4. Henry Wertz 1 Gold badge

    not going to happen

    regarding preidictions that the web will make oses completely irrelevant -- not going to happen. This has been predicted since netscape corp. claimed it around 1994... For a lot of stuff (looking up info, im type stuff, anything involving forms, etc.) it's true. For a lot of apps, they "could" be done in javascript, java, or flash now, but they end up slower, clunkier, and less featured than a native app, and i just don't see that changing, even with a native code plugin.

    Not to say that Microsoft should not be worried... They should. But the "browser makes the os irrelevant" thing just doesn't do it for me.

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    1. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Zimbra

      We moved our email to a 3rd party using Zimbra. They supply us with a plugin for Outlook. A few months later, no one's using Outlook. The Zimbra web client is faster (especially for the huge number of emails our marketing types deal with) and everyone's got used to accessing it from anywhere.

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  5. Anonymous Coward
    Linux

    Does it matter?

    The major issue with IE was it didn't do that crazy wacky standards thing, thus needing pages specifically written with all its bugs in mind, and locking out other browsers.

    As long as Chrome, Firefox, Safari, Opera, etc render a correctly written page according to the standards, I don't care what browser the "cool kids" use.

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    1. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Thumb Up

      Yes it does

      Being able to display web pages properly is something that is expected these days. IE's crapness was in the most part hidden from the general public because web devs knew how to get round the problems. (This is why most web dev's now really don't like Microsoft, their inability to do anything about it cost a lot of people a lot of money in wasted time.)

      This generations browsers will all be standards compliant, so it's become a non issue. The thing that will set them apart is speed. In this, Chrome wins hands down. It loads in milliseconds, installs without fuss, lets you install extensions without reloading, lightning quick rendering. Its also by far the most efficient in terms of screen real estate.

      I use all 3 browsers on a daily basis for development, Chrome I use for browsing.

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  6. copsewood
    Big Brother

    it's uncool to give away all your privacy

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Chrome#Usage_tracking states:

    "Chrome sends details about its usage to Google through both optional and non-optional user tracking mechanisms."

    See also

    http://blog.chromium.org/2008/10/google-chrome-chromium-and-google.html

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    1. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Black Helicopters

      FF is not much better keeping your privacy

      "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Chrome#Usage_tracking states:

      "Chrome sends details about its usage to Google through both optional and non-optional user tracking mechanisms.""

      That's why Chrome is not an option. But also the Firefox has married with Google and does the same, not telling to user, of course. Even worse in a sense than Chrome, active betrayal.

      IE is on par with Chrome, everything you do, is reported to Redmont.

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    2. The BigYin
      Reply Icon

      Indeed

      This is why I do not use Chrome and am seriously considering getting rid of my googlemail account. Google knows too much and cannot be trusted.

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  7. Anonymous Coward
    Big Brother

    Alpha geeks use Chrome?

    Wouldn't "alpha geeks" be well aware that anything they use Chrome for gets sent back to Google and used for profiling and advertising?

    I think it's more likely the B team is switching to Chrome because they believe Google's lies, like claims that Chrome is the fastest (Opera is faster) or that Firefox is a memory hog (Chrome uses much more, FF actually uses the least).

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    1. slooth
      Reply Icon
      Happy

      Reply

      I agree that most of the B team is switching only because it is cool. Most of them don't read anything worthwhile and only go on hearsay (and follow to be 'cool'). A better approach would be to view proper statistics about the various browsers such as:

      http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/opera-10.60-internet-explorer-9-safari-5,review-31945.html

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      1. Andrew Norton
        Reply Icon
        Boffin

        Browser Benchmarks

        Or, if I could dip by oar in, I did some benchmarking 2 weeks ago, Various Operas (9.6, 10.5, 10.6, two flavours of IE (7 and 8) safari, and firefox, and of course, chrome.SCripting, CSS, other fun things.

        http://ktetch.wordpress.com/2010/07/05/benchmarking-browsers-how-does-opera-10-60-stack-up/

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    2. nekomata
      Reply Icon
      Alert

      Chrome is bad

      agree, this or Google hypnotized our developers.

      FF is slow, a pain to startup, looks like made in JAVA, also has more holes than IE, I use Opera since 2007 and the only FF extension I miss is downloadthemall (eg. can download all .jpgs in one page).

      you can't even block ads with Google chrome, so it's perfect for THEIR business, I'm not anti-google, just can't stand their privacy politics.

      People missed Opera, and looking for an alternative to aged FF jumped all into fabricated Chrome-fad.

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      1. Tippis
        Reply Icon

        Re: Chrome is bad

        "you can't even block ads with Google chrome, so it's perfect for THEIR business, I'm not anti-google, just can't stand their privacy politics."

        Neither does Firefox, unless you get Adblock or some similar extension. Now, as it happens, Chrome has this: https://chrome.google.com/extensions/detail/gighmmpiobklfepjocnamgkkbiglidom?hl=en

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      2. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Alpha geeks

        a) Know exactly what is going in and out of the machines and block it if they don't like it.

        b) Block ads with a hosts table entry.

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    3. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      No

      Alpha geeks understand that when you make software you give out for free you need to know how many people have installed it. They removed the code that identified individual installations because everyone went nuts about it. It's not sat there tracking your every click, that's called spyware.

      It still amazes me in a world where people post intimate details of their lives to places like Facebook for the world to see, that a company knowing someone completely anonymous has just installed a piece of its software would matter.

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  9. Jesse Casman

    I'm wondering why

    Great piece. I think the competition around browsers -- no one's calling it browser wars anymore? -- is really fascinating. I'm wondering, though, about the why. Chrome is being used by the cool kids, you say. Why not Opera (simple), Flock (social media) or, heck, even Japan's Lunascape (triple engine browser)? What's the thing on top of Google's big marketing budget that has gotten people interested and built momentum for Chrome?

    Jesse Casman

    San Francisco, CA

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    1. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Re : Why...?

      Good question. Perhaps like everything Google does it is popular because it's different, free, more up-to-date and with-it. Apart from the free-ness (which applies to all browsers anyway), these are all just indicators of fashion.

      I don't care if geeks love it (or what they love in general) : average users and businesses need a firm boring basis for what they do, not shiny stuff. Especially shiny stuff that you can't trust to keep your business your own.

      I expect chrome will shoot rapidly to a high take-up and then stop and fade away as it hits the barriers that the real (non-geek) world imposes.

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  10. Andrew the Invertebrate

    Lies, damn lies and statistics

    "Introduced in 2008, Google Chrome has been on a tear, growing its market share by 254 per cent to claim 7.24 per cent market share early 2009. "

    Or to put it another way grew from 2.85% to 7.24% or a gain of 4.39%, which doesn't sound anywhere near as impressive as a 254% growth. It's easy toget large growth in those terms you used when you've got a small user base. For Firefox or IE to get the same level of growth as you used, they have to be at or above 100% market share, which would require the browser equvilent of stuffing ballot boxes.

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  11. Tatsky
    Thumb Up

    Horses for courses I say

    I am a web developer, so I need multiple browsers to test in. But I find when developing I use certain browsers for certain things. Firefox is my main workhorse, because with DOM Inspector, Live HTTP Headers, FireBug etc I can nail down any rendering issues, javascript issues etc very easily. I use Chrome with no plugins or extensions for quick browsing. I use Umbraco a lot, and I find it runs so much quicker in Chrome.

    I use IE6 purley for testing, and crying at, layout issues. Likewise for IE7. IE8 I have warmed to slightly as I think there are some nice touches in there.

    I am just 1 person, but as I see it all these browsers have their place in my world. Firefox is my development friend, but with all those plugins is a memory hog. Chrome is a quick browser (and when I first downloaded chrome there were no add-ins, and firefox does everything I want so I keep chrome light). IE is just for testing to make sure my applications work for the majority our there.

    So I like Firefox, and I like chrome. So maybe that makes me a cool kid, with touch of the old school?

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  12. Not That Andrew

    The title is required, and must contain letters and/or digits.

    It's from Google, it doesn't have to be good. Unfortunately Google have an Apple-like reality distortion field where everyone assumes that just because Google made it it's fantastic and they have to have it.

    IMHO it's no better or worse than any of the other browsers. It has a couple of nifty features but I hate the interface, which is even more retarded that the ribbon interface of IE 7 and later and, as noted above, is not finger friendly.

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    1. Andrew Norton
      Reply Icon

      heh

      "Unfortunately Google have an Apple-like reality distortion field where everyone assumes that just because Google made it it's fantastic and they have to have it"

      Sounds a lot like the reasoning everyone gave for Firefox for years, just replace 'google' with 'open source'

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      1. elderlybloke
        Reply Icon
        Linux

        heh

        Greetings Andrew Norton,

        I just began using Firefox because of security concerns years ago.

        How many? It is so many I can't remember.

        It has satisfied my needs and I have no urge to be "cool" .

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        1. Andrew Norton
          Reply Icon
          Thumb Down

          security concerns?

          Would this be the same firefox that has had more exploits over 08, than IE, opera AND safari combined? (115 to 31+30+32)

          The one that patches all the exploits so fast there's still some exploits for firefox 2 unpatched from before 3 came out.

          That 'you can look at the source code' also doesn't mean much, unless you actually DO. Else you're just making the same assumption that it's ok. It's the PERCEPTION of security, than real security.

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      2. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Open source is, you know, open.

        "Sounds a lot like the reasoning everyone gave for Firefox for years, just replace 'google' with 'open source'"

        Let's return to this when you can have the source code of Chrome and licence to modify and redistribute as you like, shall we?

        I won't hold my breath meanwhile.

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  13. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Up

    And next year

    Once they realize that Opera does everything that Chrome does but 100x better, they will all move to that...

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    1. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      FAIL

      Does everything..

      ..and surprisingly quickly, but has such a clunky interface that it slows you down- so a slower but more confortable browser is actually faster in use, sadly.

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    2. Giles Jones Gold badge
      Reply Icon

      Brands

      It's all about brand names:

      Chrome sounds good, makes you think of chromed metal, motorbikes etc.

      FireFox makes you think of Clint Eastwood in a high tech fighter jet.

      Opera just makes you think of middle aged rich people.

      I somehow doubt the cool kids would want Opera, it is a pretty awful name for a browser.

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      1. elderlybloke
        Reply Icon
        Pint

        Brands- Like Firefox

        That makes Clint a Ruski,- flying an (imaginary) Russian Fighter

        Surely not, tell me it's not true.

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        1. MJI Silver badge
          Reply Icon
          Black Helicopters

          Clint (Mitchell Gant) was US

          Actually if you read the book / seen the film - he was sent to Russia to steal it.

          Need a black aircraft icon!

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      2. Intractable Potsherd
        Reply Icon
        Happy

        @ Giles Jones

        I'm laughing here, because the names do affect my attitude to the three browsers you mention:

        Chrome - really cheap stuff covered with "ooh, shiny" that will fail to do what it is supposed to do soon unless I keep polishing it.

        Firefox - yep, the fighter thing!

        Opera - bland, boring stuff that will take hours to get to the end of, at least partly because a major part of it will go off and do something incomprehensibly monotonous somewhere in the middle.

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  14. Johntron
    Thumb Up

    As with everything

    The best browser will be the simplest one that has has the most adaptability.

    No one will be able to compete with google in the development dept, and thus chrome will take the crown.

    Firefox doesn't have the marketing outlets that chrome does, and will fall by the wayside, only kept bouyant by the numerous plugins and other customizations people were just getting used to.

    Ultimately, people won't care if google is watching their surfing habits, other than the paranoid alpha geeks (not that they're wrong) ...at least until google gets caught being evil with the data (inevitable)

    Microsoft already got porked for being insidious about leveraging it's OS to force use of IE, so unless they make a sincere attempt to both out-market Google, and copy Chrome's features as quickly as they are implemented (since MS can't innovate without copying), IE will fade out as well.

    Nevermind all the effects of a web-based world that doesn't need Windows, or the fact that if Google wanted to, they could turn android into a desktop OS and pat MS on the ass.

    Google has the power already, it's just a matter of time.

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    1. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      IE is a must, decision from MS

      "... IE will fade out as well."

      It won't fade as long there are Windows-machines running as you can't get anything from MS unless you are running IE. Especially not updates nor patches.

      You have to have IE, even if for that one purpose only.

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  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I don't care what the "cool kids" use

    I'll never use Chrome.

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  16. Fuzz

    two things are good about chrome

    One is the speed, but I can get that also from Opera. The other is the updating system, I don't get asked if I want to update but if I go to help>about I always seem to be on the latest version.

    These two things don't stop me from using firefox though, I'm really liking the sync plugin at the moment so my browser history is on my laptop, desktop and work machine.

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  17. Richard Cartledge
    Thumb Down

    Spyware detected = Google Chrome

    Google Chrome should be banned as Spyware.

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  18. iamapizza

    News

    Got news for you - if they're using Chrome, they're very likely not developers, just tech enthusiasts.

    2 0
  19. Cyfaill
    Linux

    And the winner is...

    The browser that interleaves the computer to the web the best.

    Most of my browsers are a flavors of Firefox-ish or Firefox specific variants.

    I use sidux (based on Debian "unstable" in other words - Most Advanced)

    I have used Chrome and watch how it develops, that’s fine. so far its not as good for me as Firefox variant Iceweasel 3.5.10 in 64bit.

    Currently my computer is hybrid to the internet as a "stationary desktop" but the important thing to keep in mind that it is permanently dependent of the existence of the internet to function properly and grow.

    sidux is a rolling release, every day it gets updated to be as current as the developers make it.

    The computer was built literally with a connection to the internet, no boxed software. The Linux OS and its 1,308 applications and programs that make it powerful came from and were dynamically compiled with a connection to the internet, using multiple server with simultaneous connections located in different countries. I can choose between 29,000 applications and programs to make the machine be what I want. All of them from the internet from repositories.

    GoogleEarth is a good example of a desktop-internet app.

    The whole thing is a 64bit extension of its inter-connectivity to the internet.

    As time goes by this trend will increase, not digress backwards in time.

    Ubuntu is very similar in its design.

    The browser as the extension of the computer is just a GUI interface and needs to be flexible yet secure... in many ways in the future I think it will be the desktop and ones "computer" thick or thin will simply be the machine interface.

    From servers and supercomputers to the handpodlys and telepods and desktops of the future Linux will be there one way or another.

    It is already there in many ways now. Android is Linux.

    Its one world not at war with itself that will make the inter-connectivity of humanity work.

    Google will likely be there. closed box systems might not.

    IE will not. I think that is a good thing. With any luck MS will evolve into something harmless like a toaster company or better yet just become toast.

    Why would I say that... because for company’s such as Microsoft innovation is defined as what ever locks you into their exclusivity of control better.

    That is not a better future. Freedom is choice and Open Source is diversity and that freedom is expressed by invention with innovation by developers competing with choices for the customer.

    The browser that wins will be adaptive cross platform.

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    1. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Again please?

      In English?

      2 1
  20. Il Midga di Macaroni
    Paris Hilton

    Gratitude is short lived

    Winston Churchill found out just after the war that even an overwhelming tide of gratitude for the past won't ensure security for the future. Firefox saved us from Death By Microsoft, but that doesn't change the fact that it takes at least 3500 milliseconds to open. Chrome starts in a few blinks of the eye. The "cool kids" (in the IT world I mean, the alpha geeks) have brains that fire VERY quickly, and to them, 3500ms is long enough to get bored. When geeks get bored, Bad Things happen.

    Paris because Chrome renders her well.

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  21. Anonymous Coward
    WTF?

    bah

    Chrome, eh? Non-standard install, and no *true* ad blocker. Not quite usable yet, unfortunately.

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