'Lenny': Debian for the masses?

Also a nice slim netbook

Debian on eee (901 in my case) runs quite nicely too, though you'll need to follow the wiki and, now I'm going to use that dreaded sequence of words) **compile your own** wireless driver. That said it takes about two lines using module assistant and then you're golden.

My nVidia card worked pretty easily, though I can't remember if I had to install the driver explicitly using apt-get, it comes so naturally these days that I forget if I had to do it or not.

Tried it in Virtual PC 2007...

Debian crashes during installation.

I know Virtual PC is not a real PC, stop whining at me. But it is a widely used program so I would expect it to work.

Don't bleat at me that it's Microsoft's fault either. Virtual PC existed before Debian Lenny, so a 1 minute test would have shown that it crashes. So now I'm having going out of my way to try it.

Imagine for two seconds that I haven't been using UNIX and Linux for the last 12 years, instead I've been brought up on Windows. My first impression as Bob the User is: Debian/Linux doesn't work. It doesn't matter too much why not. All the reasons and excuses in the world are meaningless. First impressions count. I would go back to my XP box and forget about Linux, refusing to believe the (not inconsiderable) hype, the year of the Linux desktop and so on. And I would probably tell my XP-using mates that Linux doesn't work. And we would make ourselves feel a little better by playing a few Windows games.

Oh boy. I went the extra mile and tried Debian in Sun's xVM. Debian installed. I rebooted. Guess what? Kernel panic. Yep, there's a lot to be said for Windows, I would be saying to myself.

Lies.

"Imagine for two seconds that I haven't been using UNIX and Linux for the last 12 years, instead I've been brought up on Windows. My first impression as Bob the User is: Debian/Linux doesn't work. It doesn't matter too much why not."

Yes, because Bob the 'tarded user knows all about virtual machines and installing operating systems.

You might want to check the compatibility list for Virtual PC before spouting off about linux being broken.

"Oh boy. I went the extra mile and tried Debian in Sun's xVM. Debian installed. I rebooted. Guess what? Kernel panic. Yep, there's a lot to be said for Windows, I would be saying to myself."

Personally I think you're a liar. Debian is vary stable and supports more hardware variations than any other OS *ever*.

Some Clarifications

First off, there aren't different "versions" of Debian. Debian itself contains Gnome, KDE, LXDE, XFCE, and the like. You don't have to install something like Kubuntu to get KDE, Eeebuntu to get the Eee version. Debian main scales from everything from a N810 to a massive server.

Secondly, there is no "CLI installer". I don't know what the reviewer was referring to there. The text-mode is the same installer as the graphical one, just presented... as text. Not command line. There is cdebootstrap, which lets you bootstrap a new Debian installation from within a running one, and that is a fully-automated command-line tool, but I don't think that's what they were thinking of.

If you want to manually select which desktop environment you use -- or none at all -- you can just not select the desktop environment task and install the kde, gnome, or whatever packages you like yourself. It is not hard, and they are not mutually exclusive, either. You can have both Gnome AND KDE on your system at once. They will integrate into each other's menu systems even.

GNOME

While there are ways to install KDE and such from the GUI installer, it requires passing command-line parameters at boot-time, which is definitely not user friendly.

Right or wrong, Debian is VERY friendly with the FSF/GNU (hence why they are one of the only Linux distros that follow RMS's stupid "GNU/Linux" naming policy). And the FSF/GNU is heavily tied w/ GNOME, so GNOME is what gets shoved down your throat.

OK. Tell us then.

Two tantalising comments, but no details at all.

1) "...there are plenty of CLI-based system configuration tools that you won't find in Ubuntu."

Uh-huh. Interesting. And some examples are....?

2) "...but for the seasoned user grown tired of Ubuntu's hand-holding..."

Uh-huh. Interesting. And some examples are...?

I like Debian & Ubuntu. Yet I cannot immediately think what you are referring to.

So could you elaborate please?

Thanks.

mrmond

However on a supported product like vmware or virtualbox it runs fine.

Even runs on an acer aspireone netbook. But I'm still using ubuntu cause I'm obviously a lazy virus loving malware spreader who can't be bothered with a real os.

Jeez. Get a life. Debian wasn't the first and isn't the only non ubuntu gnu/linux os out there.

I don't ever recall Linus Torvalds never said it had to remain hard to install or use forever, or that you had to use the terminal for some tasks (Even if it is faster a lot of the time)

They'll Just Never Learn

To the vast majority of automobile drivers, fluid flow and thermodynamics is not only uninteresting, it's hard to master, takes a dedicated effort to learn, and then once it is learned its uses are relatively few. I learned a bit of it as a nuc boat mechanic in 1969; been no good to me since. And yet I drive a truck daily that takes advantage of the principles of fluid flow and thermodynamics... among others admittedly. But do I care how heat is generated and how it's used? Do I care how pressures are created and put to use? Do I care about how energy is extracted form a fuel? Do I really care about all the engineering that has to go into the creation of a usable engine to meet my transportation needs? No, and neither do 99.99% of the other drivers on the road all over the world. And it's always been that way; all they want to do it get from point A to point B in their version of style and comfort.

The same applies to the OS. It's a frakkin' tool to simply get a job done for 99.99% of the world's home computer users and 99.99% of them don't give a tinker's damn which one it is or what it's called or named. If the tool works they're satisfied.

The IT world simply can't come to grips that when it comes to the OS on the platter the non-tecky types (the buyers of home computers) just don't give a damn...they want it to work and they expect those of you who revel in the OS and its nuances to install it when needed, fix it when needed, and then silently take the money and slink away back to where ever it is you come from until needed again.

Guys, nobody but you cares about the OS and the fact that this type conversation keeps happening is proof that you're just not getting your story out and into the heads of your intended audience. On this site, and other arenas like it, your preaching to the choir; everywhere else you may as well be speaking Martian 'cause ain't nobody caring or listening. You enable nice toys, but after that nobody gives a damn what you think or want. You're their fix-it man when it breaks and invisible the rest of the time.

Now you have to understand, I love it. I love a good clown act and I love to see people beat themselves up over stuff only they understand. Kind of like watching a fireworks factory explode. Oh wow! Man that was awesome! The fireball was magnificent and the sound was deafening! Huh? There was somebody in those buildings? Damn, that's gotta hurt! Wow did you see that green fireball!!!

We need more green explosions guys, so keep the fires going.

<End of Thread>

Lies? No, the truth...

David Hicks, prove me wrong.

Install VPC or xVM, then try and install Debian Lenny. See what happens. I have several versions of Linux and FreeBSD installed in VPC 2007. They all work fine. The latest Debian does not.

As usual, the Linux fan boys can't stand a little criticism. I don't need to check any compatibility list for VPC. It is Debian Lenny that does not work on it.

I know Linux is not a supported guest OS. So what. That doesn't mean anything.

I haven't said that Linux is broken. I have said that Debian Lenny does not work in VPC or xVm. So instead of trying to spread some FUD, go and see for yourself.

One more thing that's better than Ubuntu

It's not brown.

@ I remember a time... By Alex Posted Monday 16th February 2009 18:01 GMT

your attitude is a perfect illustration of why i can't be arsed with Linux.

the same l33t157 attitude i encountered on the "help" forums.

if Linux is so good and so free and easy to use why isn't it a distro on all new PCs?

no licence fee, no activation/ re-activation, genuine disadvantage etc.

the truth is, its a geek toy, nothing else.

get back in yer closet.

Elite my arse

I confess to getting a kick out of Unix guys bashing each other over who's the hardest. They're all limp-wristed C programmers as far as I am concerned. I stopped programming in disgust when assembly language went out of fashion. Now that was coding for real men. Just try doing recursion in assembler. Heck, it practically does itself in C, sometimes when you aren't even expecting it. Of course assembler is a bit soft for those of us that started out programming in raw machine code instructions, but it is undeniably convenient not to have to calculate all those hexadecimal jumps and offsets in your head. The beginning of the end, I suppose. Script kiddies these days don't know they're born.

What?

@Michael Fremlins - Why on earth would you want to run Debian in a Windows VM?

I worked at a major european telco where debian which was the defacto distro was deployed across tens of thousands of production servers running core infrastructure and services. They like it because is rock solid, very secure, adaptable and facilitates development of super fast apps that run close to the metal.

And in a large corporate or ISP hosting setup's where linux slices are virtualised it is similarly unlikely that Windows would feature.

In userland license & software costs are the main driver in encouraging the shift to open-source. The trend isn't users trying out linux in a windows vm - it is folks ditching windows completely for linux distro's like ubuntu and debain. For those who still wish to use Windows only software (and haven't already shifted to OSX) its more likely they will be running a win32 emulator under linux.

Leeny for the masses (at least the IT educated ones)

@Michael Fremlins

I do have 3 xVM Debian Lenny Virtual boxes running on my lab, the three of them seem to be working just fine.

Honestly, I build Debian Linux VM´s all the time and never had any version crash on xVM or VMWARE

@Doug Glass

Thanks god no sane IT person pays attention to arguments like these, because computers are not cars you know.

If anyone followed your arguments computers would still be black and white terminals, and you won´t be ranting against the people who over the years make things possible.

I bet you do not run Windows 3.11.

oh goodie

'The latest X.org brings some nice new features like hot-swappable support for input devices such as mice and keyboard and enhanced support for touch screens and tablets.'

Wow. even DOS could do that in 1984 ... Support for wireless networking and bluetooth should be right around the corner. Real soon now. Yes , i can almost smell it. It'l definately be less than 25 years ... On a cosmic scale that is infinitesimal. In the mean time we will make do with pieces of wood and bearskins in the cave...

Come on guys, it's 2009. Get with it !

whats the big deal with a distro being easy, or hand holding?

some people JUST want an alternative to windows, and install whatever JUST works.. for the more knowledgeable tweakers out there, there's always debian, gentoo, slackware, arch for the rest of us, that dont care bout a few seconds of boot time or 1 more second of application startup time, we have distros like mint, ubuntu, kubuntu, pclinuxos, and others..

if someone wants to spend HOURS configuring for a few more fps, or 2 seconds boot time, more power to you. I personally wanna be up and running as fast as possible, if I want to learn more, then I'LL deal with debian,or the others mentioned above.. but LINUX is LINUX (package management,talkinb about how long it took you to get this or that .2% faster, and tweaking are just for forum, chatroom, blogging braggin rights.

'Lenny': Debian for the masses?

"We wouldn't recommend it for Linux newcomers since it requires more command line know-how than most, but for the seasoned user grown tired of Ubuntu's hand-holding, Debian makes a powerful step up on the Linux ladder."

Hmm... apparently not (for the masses).

@Alex

What a complete moron you are!

Computers and their associated operating systems are designed by humans. That means if they don't "just work" as they're supposed to, then they've been badly designed! There is no spiritual enlightenment to be gained by struggling and toiling away to make some opaque machine behave itself. You seem to be comparing the daily chores of maintaining an OS to something akin to scientific discovery! Idiot.

*applause* @ Doug Glass

Too right. If you want to experiment with low-level OS or programming skills, great, fire up the Assembler or Lisp and have fun. For the rest of us for whom the computer is a tool, or, god forbid, an appliance, we'd rather spend time actually *using* it.

And given the fact that this distro apparently still can't get to grips with Nvidia (without pissing around in config files, by the sound of it), I'll be giving it a miss.

Good god, are we really trying to stop Linux!

This comment trail is painful to read, and infuriating.

I am a self confessed geek, and have been for 40+ years, and also a 30 year+ UNIX user (and Linux since it has been around). I've supported UNIX systems at a source code level, and have worked in a major vendor's UNIX support Centre as one of the senior techies.

I have NOT got the spare time to fiddle with Linux to get it working on my day-to-day system. I do NOT want Windows. So, I use a major distro expecting this to do most of the hard stuff, and this has become Ubuntu. It's quick to install, supports pretty much everything on mainstream PC's and provides the necessary apps. for close on 100% of users who are application agnostic (not everyone, I know).

But I can tweak it if I want. It's close enough to Debian to allow me to put most .deb packages on. And I can compile the stuff up if I need it (e.g. the airprime module to speed up 3G USB dongles). If you want to use the bleeding edge Nvidia drivers, you can, but if you don't, what is in the repository will suffice. But I won't deny other distro's the right to exist, or peoples right to use them. Nor will I deny the rights of people to use Windows when they know no better.

It's important for Lenny to be produced, because it feeds through to other distros, but it is not the OS for the masses, and the Debian core team probably know that. Ubuntu could be, but the jury is still out, waiting for mainstream app. and game support. Normal users want stability, confidence that the system works, the apps. they need, and maybe a good update and patching process.

Also, it would not be the first time that a Microsoft product deliberately offered poor support or artificial barriers to alternative technologies. I used to use the Microsoft tools Virtual Desktop (on a work provided laptop, please note) which used to lose windows when switching between desktops. But only the Firefox ones!

To all of the Linux proponents out there, get with this message. We need a DOMINANT Linux distro for the masses. Stop squabbling in public, it's ugly, and makes people turn away.

An OS that "Just Works..."

I love how all you Windows guys say that as if you know what it means!!! Keep up the good work et c...

@Peter

I Disagree that any of the distro's are anywhere near truly "multimedia at one click" especially for games and home network streaming, it is hard enough for most users in a simple clicky win environment never mind the funny land of linux distro's.

But i do agree the linux needs a dominant distro or it will go on for ever as a geek fest, what i find really funny is i help people over skype with distro setups and installs as well as linux for webservers and gaming servers. now i must spend 5 hrs a week at least explaining and doing talk-through’s of installs and problems , not that I am a super genius just experienced in using the little black and white devil.

But then see the same people post on forums and newsgroups about how great and easy Linux , and how it is better than this or that .....lads grow up .

No Brainer

" it would not be the first time that a Microsoft product deliberately offered poor support or artificial barriers to alternative technologies"

what like sony or apple or 100 other big players do, market forces I am afraid as well as product protection. it's linux that leans on MS backoffice platforms then it has to have it's own.

@Flocke Kroes

You sir are why linux will stay in the land of the tweaker and tinker, MS actually paid $20 000 for the latest IE exploit , and to burst you delicate little bubble "Imagine a world" actually MS does dominate the market home and office and handheld .....and in case you did not notice hardware is nothing to do with an OS ..wop de do linux can run my fridge ..but can it play games in HD for my son or stream HD to 2 laptops and my TV as well email, web browse, can I vpn in with less hassle , how easy is a NAS setup..blah blah blah ..all with little pain ?

Linux is fecked until one main distro takes over and it become windowfied with one click and wizards galore of course the evangelists will have a heart attack and claim treason ...It must be tough being a fan boy........not.

@Peter Gathercole

Completely agree!

I use Ubuntu because it supports everything on my laptop out of the box and I was up and running with it in not time at all. It doesn't prevent me from tinkering with it though: I can tweak it to my heart's content, install, un-install, re-install stuff, be a geek by writing my letters with LaTeX or automating some photo manipulation using Image Magick in a nifty shell script. And if I want to go the uber-geek route, I can alway tinker with Gentoo in a VirtualBox VM. But the important thing is that the starting curve is very smooth. Linux needs the whole spectrum of distributions: from the easy to install ones like Ubuntu to the hardcore ones like Gentoo, and everything in between.